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Would it be so awful if "abortion question" was answered by the individual states?

Posted: Sep 14, 2011

I'm not making an argument, I'm looking for clarification.

When the people of a state feel so strongly about it, should that state have the power to allow or disalow? This could become one of the factors in where people chose to live and if they chose incorrectly for their eventual needs, they could make the trip to another state for their needs. I'm not suggesting that it is a good solution BUT is it a possible solution so that the feds can get on to things of national importance.

One of the things the repugs and the teapartiers are always complaining about is the loss of "states' rights"--could this be a solution?

;

I understand what you are saying but I don't - think it is the answer SM

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Think what a hardship it would be to have to find doctor/clinic in another state, and then having to get transportation there. This kind of thing would only affect low income women. Until such time that the SC changes the law (which I do not believe will ever happen) termination of pregnancy is a legal choice for a woman. There is a big flaw in the thinking of these TP people or anyone else who wants to criminalize abortion. They want to force a women with an unplanned pregnancy to have that child; on the other hand, they want to cut any and all programs to help that mother care for the child that she was not equipped to take care of in the first place. They don't want young people to learn about birth control, only abstinence. They are not living in reality. They don't want the government to intrude on our lives, yet they want the government involved in a very personal issue.

Boy this makes me sound old - my experience

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When I was a Senior in High School (before Rowe vs Wade) my father was a homicide detective. He often talked about the women of the back alley abortion clinics, some just teenage girls, some women of no means. I just kinda listened but didn't put much attention to it.

THEN.....He came home from work one day and said we were having guests for dinner the next evening. It was a girl (my exact age) who had gotten pregnant in AZ. and come to CA. with her boyfriend to one of the back alley, nothing more than coat hanger clinics, that were the only choice back then. Bottom line, she almost died from hemorrhaging and infection. She was coming to CA with her father to testify at the trial of the people running that clinic. She wanted to testify on behalf of the girls/woman that died at the hands of the butchers running the clinic. My father had invited her and her father to dinner.

After dinner she and I went out to get a coke and cruise around for a while. I took her and showed her some of the places my friends and I hung out. She was a normal teenage girl with the same dreams that I had. That was when I fully understood the damage those clinics really did. She would never be able to have children and it was all because she was too afraid to tell her parents (she told me she didn't want to see the disappointment in their eyes)so she and her boyfriend tried to handle it themselves.

For whatever her reasons are, a woman needs to know there is a safe, clean place to go if she makes that decision and she should not have to run all over the country.
JMHO

It would be nice if these TP people would show some support - sm

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If the TP people and the people who want to criminalize abortion so bad would put some effort into helping single moms and with babies get a job that pays enough for food, shelter, health, education, without a huge guilt trip laid on them, perhaps they could reduce the number of abortions. But no, they want to spend all their time intimidating these young girls at the clinics and supporting legislators that want to cut all benefits to women and children. I don't know why they are not smart enough to see the bigger picture.

What makes you think they don't? - I will say it again.

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Conservatives donate more money to charities than do liberals. Please, put your money where your mouth is. It will do poor people the most good.

What does that have to do with actually helping someone? - sm

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Guess what? I "know someone," a conservative, who donates his old junk cars to charity for the tax write off. Those conservatives do love their tax write-offs. Yes, conservatives go to church and the country club more, and give to their popular charites, but that does not mean that help is there on a consistent basis where it is needed the most. That is what government does, and much better than the Country Club Society. Put your words into actions, okay? (by the way, I have worked with the poor, have you?--you know the ones--the ones without the wide-screen TVs.)

Yes, I have. I donate my money and my time - to several different charities

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and my church. What does that have to do with helping people? I am guessing that the money I donate to the homeless shelter in some way helps the homeless. I am certain that the time I donate there does. I have never been to a country club and I do donate to my church whose youth group just went on a mission to help build buildings at a group home for foster children, who I will wager, are not rich. It helps.

Interesting. Do those homeless people know how you feel about them? - sm

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You know, how you think they are lazy and need to be uncomfortable so they will claw their way out of poverty?

You don't know how I feel - about them, either.

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Homeless people are largely disabled and many have mental problems. And I also said that don't wish anyone to go without food or clothing or shelter or a warm house.

Odd an MT would feel that way - after all, you and - the rest of us are just 1 paycheck away.

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Bravo!! - sm

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I think there is a growing number of homeless people who have lost their jobs and are trying to live (sometimes in their cars if they are still fortunate enough to have them) as best as they can after they lose their homes. Nothing to do with any kind of mental illness. They probably paid into the system just like everybody else until their job was off-shored to a place like Pakistan, for example, especially if they worked an MT kind of job.

You're absolutely right, and your post was very eloquently written. I couldn't agree more!

Speak for yourself. - I am certainly not rich, but

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I do not live paycheck to paycheck. We have put some money away and, by the way, there are safety nets in this country, already in place, to ensure that people are not homeless. People who are homeless are largely so because they do not take advantage of the government programs designed to keep them from being that way because, largely, of mental disorders. At any rate, the reason that I donate to the needy with my time and money is because I don't despise them, as you would like to believe. Not everything is as black and white as you so obviously think it is, including the ways I feel about social issues. Just because I disagree with your opinions, does not make me the monster that you hope I am. Chances are, I am more compassionate than most of you.

Golly! I hope I don't get so poor that - sm

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I can't fit my wide-screen TV into my car.

You mean like President Clinton donating his underwear - for the tax write off - sm

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Conservatives are not the only ones who do write offs.

LOL! Got a link? He is a kind and generous man, for sure. - nm

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It shouldn't be up to a state, or anyone other than - the WOMAN AND HER DOCTOR.

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It's nobody else's business. PERIOD.

You might think... - Mary

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it's nobody's business but the woman and her doctor but killing someone makes it society's business. If you go along with killing the unborn, then killing the born is just a natural progression. A woman thinks she has a right to kill her chilren. Casey Anthony (among others) is a good example. Abortion has caused the deaths of some living children, in my humble opinion. And...protecting children should be all of society's responsibility. You don't have the right to kill...PERIOD.

Bit of a stretch. - sm

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So in in your humble opinion, women who have the audacity to believe the right to control their bodies and plan the size of their families without the intrusion of the state or interference from religious zealots are capable of indiscrminate murder and mayhem in the social arena? Just a natural progression, huh? They are all just a bunch of Casey Anthonys. This outlandish line of thinking serves as a perfect example of why abortion and family planning do not belong in the hands of the state and should never be decided by fringe fanatics. You spend way too much time hanging out in the right wing blogosphere and watching sensational media court trial orgies and far too little time engaging your brain. Try reading up on the history of birth control and family planning in the US so you can realize how absurd it is to expect American women to simply roll over at the behest of puritanical anachronists to make way for regression back to the 19th century (CRIMINAL) penal code.

You are also a bit confused. Under current law, the murderers are your fellow vigilantes who invoke these same beliefs when assassinating physicians who provide perfectly legal medical services. Your opinion is your opinion. Fine. Conduct your own personal life accordingly, proceed with trying your best to change the law (good luck with that), but in the meantime, stay away from my gynecologist and my reproductive organs. They are none of your business and what the MD and I decide to do with them is protected under the law.

Bit of a stretch - don't you think

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To assume that the above poster is a vigilante or that she condones people killing abortion doctors? I am against abortion, but it no way do I find killing abortion doctors or clinic workers or anyone else acceptable. As far as your reproductive organs go, you're right, they are not my business, but if you want to kill a baby, it is everyone's responsibility to point out that this is wrong.

I have no desire to be around.... - Mary

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your reproductive organs. But I do believe that doctors who perform abortions should have their licenses taken away. Remember...first do no harm. Birth control is different than aborting a baby. I am not against birth control unless the form you are using is abortion. Murder has never been a favored option..especially for the baby. Try being responsible. It's not too difficult. ; )

Yes I do have the right to dispose of anything - on/in MY body that I dont want.

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BTW - you brain-deal Pubs call sweeping away a few unformed cells "killing", and yet you clap and hoot and holler when someone suggests just letting the old, sick, insurance-less and job-less people just die?

Talk about a piece of work. BUZZ OFF.

BTW - that was "brain DEAD". I knew I'd have to - spell that one out for ya.

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X

Don't be so hard on yourself - nm

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:)

So...you seem to be... - Mary

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very angry and resentful about something. Just how many babies have you disposed of? ; )

Why would I, or anyone else, tell the likes of YOU that? - I dont give religious freaks the time of day.

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.

Let's have a witch hunt, why don't we? - mthead

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That is what we would end up with if we had a theocracy. One day it would be people who've had abortions (let's stone 'em) and the next it would be people who had affairs (let's cut off their privates) and the next it would be people who had sinful thoughts (give 'em lobotomies). This is why the separation of church and state is so vital to the continuation of our democracy. What if it wasn't YOUR religion that was in charge?

That's fine... - hmmm

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God will sort it out at the end anyway, and He does a much better job of meting out justice than us humans could.

He does a much better job than you do. - nm

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Yes...He does. - hmmm

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And He's infinitely more patient with you than I will ever be.

Like, I'm just SO sure that if such a deity even existed, - they would be keeping a little - sm

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rolodex file on each and every one of us, tallying up our sins.

oh well, at least all the religoids out there are good for a laugh now and then. cheap entertainment.

He doesn't need a Rolodex... - hmmm

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It only takes 1 sin to keep you out of heaven - rejection of God. Sounds like you've got that one already covered.

The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.

He'll have the last laugh, I'm afraid.

I wouldn't want to go to a heaven where everyone - there had a stick up their butt.

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I think the same thing a LOT! If these - "superior" human (sm)

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beings I run into (some on this board, too) have the exclusive keys to Heaven, then I'm content just staying behind with the people who believe in a kind, good, forgiving, happy God, or maybe they don't believe in any God at all.

I'm not a Pub or a dumb Dem either... - Mary

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and I don't approve of letting elderly people die any more than I approve of some woman offing her own flesh and blood.

Piece of work...you should talk.

LOL - I'll bet you teach Sunday school, too, dontcha? - nm

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If she does, and you ask nicely... - hmmm

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maybe she'll arrange a scholarship for you. Sounds like you need it.

I'd rather have a root canal than sit through even - 1 hr. of all that religious crapola.

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Which is what it is, with a capital "C".

So true. Religious freaks/zealots are a whole - different animal.

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#

I am pro-choice, but the way you said that was... - disgusting. Also, late-term

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abortions ARE criminal, in my opinion. My aunt used to work for a doctor and assisted in those. She finally had to quit, stating that these WERE obvious killings. She could no longer assist in that.

I agree with your aunt. - sm

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The Constitution has made it very clear just who is protected under the law. The person must be born or naturalized in the United States. It doesn't speak to a bunch of cells in a petrie dish, embryos or fetuses.

The person must be BORN or NATURALIZED. If a woman has an abortion very early in her pregnancy, that fetus obviously hasn't been "born" yet and isn't viable to live outside the uterus. Similarly, if a woman decides to have a late-term abortion of a viable fetus that requires actual killing AFTER BEING BORN, that's obviously murder.

The difference here is as clear as night and day, and in my mind, there is no room for a religious fanatic that wants to control this country according to his/her OPINION.

As I said, this comes from the CONSTITUTION itself when defining what a citizen is.

Well how wonderful for you & your aunt. But you - still cant control what others do, & NEVER WIL

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Curious. What would you do if you discovered your 13 y/o daughter - sm

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was suffering from an severe pelvic infection caused by a do-it-yourself abortion?

Take her to the doctor. - What would you do?

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Would I be disgusted at what she did? Yes, I would. Would I still love my daughter? Yes, I would, just as I do not hate others who kill their babies. It still does not mean that I should condone it for my daughter, my sister, my neighbor or a total stranger.

(She neglects to mention it would likely be a - WITCH-DOCTOR...) lol

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.

Boy, I bet you feel clever now. - Probably took you the better

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part of an hour to come up with that doozy ;)

lol - (cue mental image of above poster dancing in - living room, rattlesnake in teeth....)

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Now, why would I put the rattlesnake in my teeth? - You just don't know anything

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about these things, do you?

LOL! This Board is truly crazy - I couldn't believe

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there was actually posts about dancing around with rattlesnakes between your teeth, and was truly shocked when I traced them back as responses to something I had posted earlier.

Thank you for lightening my day.

Do yourself a favor. Get a library card. - Do some READING, instead of ranting.

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Who was ranting? - Somebody made a joke at

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my expense and instead of continuing to be nasty, I joined in. Whatever. We could all stand to laugh at ourselves sometimes. Just to be clear, I have never touched a rattlesnake, not even a dead one. I guess I'm going to go pick up a book to read for awhile. I hope you all have a great weekend!

The thing is, it is a matter of national importance. - Fiscal issues cause arguments.

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Social issues cause fist fights. This is why I don't trust any candidate who is unwilling to speak out as to his or her stance on social issues. The thing is, they matter. They are important. I disagree that it should be any woman's choice to kill her baby. If that baby were already born, everyone would be disgusted if she killed it, yet we are all willing to sit by and call it a choice, while it is in the womb. I find it disgusting. I also don't think that the argument about back alley abortion clinics really holds water. Because women are going to break the law anyway, the law shouldn't exist? What kind of nonsense is that really? People still steal, people still murder (and I believe that abortion is murder of the very worst kind), yet, we don't get rid of those laws. At any rate, it is unlikely that people are ever going to find a common ground on this issue. Some people think that it is okay to kill babies, if you chose, and some do not. Since we have labeled it pro-choice (to avoid the term pro-abortion), where is the choice for the child who dies?

Not all were back alley - many were done at home

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by 13 year old girls using toothbrushes and coat hangers. Really. These were usually the poor girls. The rich girls were taken by their mothers to other countries where abortions were legal.

If we went back to that time, the instructions would be on the internet - nm

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Well then, if that's what happened or might happen, - by all means, let's just continue

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to say it's okay to kill babies. Really? Again, this is really not a good argument for anything. It is an excellent argument against do-it-yourself or back alley abortions, though.

I do not understand why Republicans who profess - sm

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I do not understand why Republicans who profess to be for small government and individual freedom are so eager to legislate against pro-choice, and yet so eager to execute people who committed crimes when juveniles, the mentally ill, and sometimes possibly innocent people.

And I can't understand why those who are so - against executing violent offenders

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so vigorously defend the "right to choose" to kill society's most defenseless members. We will probably never understand one another.

I'm not certain I want to understand... - Mary

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the mind of a woman who vigorously supports the idea of killing her own flesh and blood. I know there are those who "choose" to do so and their lives are forever ruined but I also know of those who staunchly defend their right to do so. It is these I don't want to understand. Their mindset is just plain scary.

Mary, the Convent is calling. You're late for - evening prayers. :p

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.

I think I hear your pimp calling you ; ) - Mary

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`

Ah well, can't say as I blame you for feeling cranky. - After all, it can be pretty hard work

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bombing family planning clinics, and picketing at the funerals of dead U.S. soldiers.

Bible-thumpers are an embarrassment to the whole country.

Shame on you - see message

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You should think before you post such garbage. Because someone does not agree with your views on abortion does not mean you have the right to throw such inflammatory remarks like that out. I do not believe in abortion, but I would never harm another person because they practice it. As for our Men and Women who served and gave up their lives including one of my own, I find your remarks utterly disgusting.

By the way, I read my Bible, I don't thump it.

You are truly an embarrassment to this country.

LOL! No problem. You just go on believing in - your little fairy stories, honey.

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Oy...

AMEN! - nm

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Would it be so awful... - Mary

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if we tried to teach our daughters that sex can wait so that our children and grandchildren don't have to be killed? What ever happened to personal responsibility? Killing is never the right choice just because some dimwit says it's legal. God help those women who make that awful choice.

Would it be so awful to not only teach - Conservative MT

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our children to wait and save themselves but also be realistic about it and know that if our teens are curious enough and interested enough...that they can and will have sex if they want and we cannot stop them. I think not only do our teens need to be taught that the best option is to save sex for marriage and the only 100% prevention of pregnancy is abstinence...but we need to go further and also share with them contraception information, condom information, etc.

My son is 17 years old. He plans to wait until marriage and I applaud that whole heartedly. However, I also know things happen in the heat of the moment and not only did I explain this to him but I make him carry condoms just in case. I love his plan to wait but I'm also realistic enough to know that he may not. I want him to be prepared because pledging to stay abstinent doesn't work a lot. I'd rather provide my son with condoms and hope he doesn't have sex then to tell him he can't have sex and then he have nothing and gets someone knocked up.

As for the whole abortion thing. It is a slippery slope. I am against abortion. I think it is murder. However, to prevent these back alley abortions, etc. I would be willing to compromise. As long as the woman had the procedure done within a certain time frame during the pregnancy, I would legally let it slide. Late-term abortions would be 100% illegal if it were up to me. I think that just takes things WAY too far.

I still think abortion is wrong but I'm not the one who has to live with that decision. Whoever performs them or has them will have to answer for that decision. I just think if they choose to abort, it needs to be done early in the pregnancy and now allowed later in the pregnancy. I also have no problem with the morning after pill.

So at least I'm willing to compromise and at least I'm also willing to teach my kids more than just abstinence...because I was once a teen and I had sex before marriage. I know how it is and I think realistically about things and those who think preaching purely abstinence is going to stop teens from having sex need to open their eyes because sadly...more often than not...they don't wait.

You assume too much... - Mary

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I do realize that teens may not be able to wait, i.e. "heat of the moment" if you will and they should know about contraceptives/condoms but it is more important they learn to abstain because condoms can break and contraceptives sometimes fail to work. If a teen must have sex, they must also be prepared for the consequences that may happen. Allowing for abortion only makes the choice to have sex that much easier, especially when someone such as yourself claims that it is not a life in the "early stages." I could care less about the so-called "back alley abortions." This argument is so lame, it's meant to appeal to emotions but there are never any emotions for the baby who will die. There is always the option of adoption and, if a teen girl feels she must have sex, then she should have to at least give life to the baby she produced, even if she gives it up. I was also a teen who had sex before marriage but I was responsible and my mother taught me right from wrong. A pregnancy would never have ended in a "back alley" abortion. It's nice that you can "compromise." Too bad a baby doesn't get that choice.

Talk about assuming..... - Conservative MT

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Not once in my reply did I say that I thought an early pregnancy wasn't a life. I do believe I said I was against all abortion but I was willing to compromise. Yes, I still think it is wrong morally, but I'm not going to have to answer for that because I'm not having one nor am I performing one. If I had my way abortion would be 100% illegal. However, I do have a problem with girls who can't go to their parents and rush out and have a risky procedure done merely to hide their shame from their parents and ending up dead or permanently injured for life.

My son knows that condoms can and do break. He knows that isn't 100% sure way to prevent pregnancy...but it is still better than having unprotected sex. I've not only educated him on condoms and the risks and benefits, but I've also told him about birth control for woman and that it takes a month to be effective and it must be taken consistently and that some antibiotics make is less effective as well. I've talked to him about STDs, etc. He is well informed and I feel good knowing that he is well informed. I also believe my educating him well in STDs is a BIG reason for him saying he is going to wait. But that doesn't mean he still won't do it if he got the chance. I'd much rather him have that condom...even if it unfortunately breaks...than for him to go ahead with nothing at all and then feel like he can't talk to me because all I do is preach about not doing it.

My mother preached to me about not doing it. So when I did and had a pregnancy scare...do you think I was able to talk to her about it? Of course not. I went through that all by myself, never told a single soul for fear it would reach my parents, and thankfully I wasn't but it was a horrible feeling to think you might be pregnant and not have someone you could go to.

I don't want to be my kids buddy and pal...but I do want them to feel like they can talk to me if they need to. Perhaps if some parents would communicate more with their kids, be more understanding, and tell them I don't want you to have sex but just in case you do kinda conversations with them that these girls wouldn't need to go to these back alley clinics because they could talk to their parents about it and decide together the best option and have full support and backing instead of being terrified of their parents and running off to have something risky and life threatening done out of desperation.

I don't encourage my son to have sex and I praise his decision for waiting, but at least I know he has the knowledge and the protection he needs (even if it isn't 100% pregnancy proof)in case he changes his mind. I also know that if he did change his mind and the condom broke and he did get a girl pregnant, he would come and talk to me about it and I'm thankful I've built that kind of relationship with him.

I don't let him run free and we aren't best buddies....but even though I have rules he has to follow....I know he will come to me if he breaks a rule. He already has actually...but that was another rule he broke. lol He got grounded for it and is still grounded but even though he screwed up and broke a rule, I am proud of him for doing the right thing in the end and I told him that.

Good for you... - Mary

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you're talking to your son. That's what good parents do but I wasn't wrong in my assumption. 100% against abortion is NOT a "compromise." You are either against it or for it...there is no such thing as a compromise. There is acceptance of what may happen but that doesn't equate to compromise. My mother didn't preach but she did tell us what to expect and, of course, she took us to church where we learned right from wrong also. I talked to my sons as well as my daughters and told them they needed to be just as responsible as any girl. My daughter wasn't preached to but I did tell her if she decided to have sex and got pregnant just what that would entail. There would be NO abortion and she would continue her schooling and come home after and care for her baby. She knew what the consequences would be and decided she would rather attend prom, games, parties, etc. than have sex and a baby. She learned that killing a baby was wrong and my husband and I would never support that decision or help her kill her baby. We talked often and all our children knew what was expected and what the consequences would be if pregnancy occurred. Of course, with sons, you have no say...the parents of the girl are stuck with the decisions but both our sons knew that the killing of our grandchildren would also kill us and they had enough love and respect for us to not go that route. Talking to your kids about sex is the best birth control there is. I applaud you for your efforts. : )

Not to mention he has 2 very younger - Conservative MT

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siblings and he remembers the screaming and crying at night. He said that was bad enough having to listen to with his siblings let alone him actually having to be the one to get out of bed and take of the baby. lol I think that has been the best "birth control" for him. ;)

I agree.. :) - Mary

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When our daughter was in high school, her Home Ec teacher made all the kids in her class carry a doll around for 2 weeks. They had to treat it just like it was a live baby and they got graded on how they treated it. (Of course, at home, the teacher had no way of knowing what was going on but relied on the parents to "teach"). My daughter would forget and leave it laying on the coffee table. I asked her, "Is that where you'd leave a live baby?" That experience was the best "lecture" she could have ever had. She never realized how hard caring for a baby could be and it might have been the real reason she waited...21 before she had her son. I had her at 18. ; )

Please see message. - sm

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You wrote: "You are either against it or for it...there is no such thing as a compromise."

Not true. A person can be against abortion personally but still respect the right to have one.

Sarah Palin claims to believe in and preach abstinence, yet look what happened in her family.

There are also people who don't believe in choice, preach abstinence and want to dictate that every woman in the United States follow her beliefs.

I'm far from it, but if I were a teenager I'd just roll my eyes at you.

This is an issue that calls for tolerance. You're doing your children a disservice by not displaying that tolerance.

I cannot tolerate killing babies. - There are issues that call for

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tolerance and there are things that are just plain wrong. It is wrong to kill babies. It is wrong to look the other way and say nothing while someone else kills a baby. It is wrong, any way you paint it.

It's really very simple. - sm

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If you don't believe in abortion, then DON'T HAVE ONE!! But instead, you try to force your personal views down the throats of those who might disagree with you.

I won't ever personally have an abortion, yet I am pro-choice. What other people do is within their rights under the law and is NONE OF MY BUSINESS.

Whoever... - Mary

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came up with that little jingle was a bumbling idiot...if you don't like something...don't do it. It's the most idiotic saying I've ever heard. If you don't like molestation...don't do it. Some things are just not good for society. Just because you wouldn't do them personally doesn't mean that others should be allowed. It verges on the obscene and those who chant that little ditty are nothing but fools. Legalizing murder doesn't make it right and never will.

You really think a few cells are a "baby"? Someone - needs to go back to high school biology class.

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That's the problem with religion - it's all about dogma, ignorance and fairytales, and nothing about truth, science, or real life.

You were once a few cells... - Mary

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I guess you'd have to be pretty ignorant or not paying attention in biology class to not know that. ; )

Yes, I was. And so were you. But that's all we were. - And still a very long way out from being

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actual babies yet. We were still under construction.

Just because you nail 2 boards together with the plan of building a house, it is still not yet a house until much, much further along in the construction. It's still just a couple boards and nails.

A fetus is the START of a baby. But it in no way, shape or form is yet an actual human being.

You should put down your bible for a while and start believing in science. Unlike all your bible stories, science is real.

It is true... - Mary

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There is no such thing as a compromise when death will be the result. Respecting the right to kill is ludicrous...utterly insane. Sarah Palin can believe any way she wants and she can teach her children whatever she wants. That doesn't necessarily mean her children will abide by her wishes. It is just what she would prefer. Surely you are mature enough to see the difference...well, maybe not. ; ) It's not a choice...it's a life and no one should have the right to take a life. It's called murder. You probably are a teenager or don't have children at all. That's why you can make snap judgements. Tolerance for death is also insane. My children are my children....not yours. Don't presume to tell me how to raise them.

But you would presume to tell the entire - sm

[ In Reply To ..]
country to live by YOUR rules.

For you to judge that I'm probably a teenager (I'm a GREAT grandmother) or don't have children at all (how ya THINK I GOT to be a great grandmother?) is an example of how you decide what is and what isn't.

And, as usual, you're wrong.

Abortion is not against the law and hasn't been for a very long time.

Deal with it.

They're not my rules... - Mary

[ In Reply To ..]
They're God's rules and the laws of nature. I implied you seemed like a teenager. Your cavalier attitude is very teenager-ish. Abortion/murder may not be against man's laws but it is against God's. Some day you will deal with that.

The god I believe in isn't a vidictive tyrant, - like yours seems to be.

[ In Reply To ..]
He made everybody different for a reason. Part of being different is having different ideas, dreams, beliefs, life situations, and reasons for doing what they do. I think if your god REALLY thought people who for one reason or another, felt it was irresponsible to bring an unwanted kid into this already-overcrowded world, he'd probably strike them down with a bolt of lightening or something. So far, I don't see that happening.

I don't know about your God, but mine... - hmmm

[ In Reply To ..]
isn't some wishy-washy entity who just lets His creation run wild without consequences.

If you have kids, don't you give them any rules to follow? Bedtime? Curfew? Chores around the house?

Do you try to teach them not to steal, cheat, fight?

If not, then I guess you will reap what you sow in your children. If you do, then why wouldn't the God of the universe have a set of expectations, guidelines, and a standard of right to adhere to?

So what does this entity look like? Beard? Goatee? - Black? White? Mixed race? - sm

[ In Reply To ..]
Birkenstock sandals and a robe? Or does he prefer the preppy Izod look?

Yes, they're by YOUR God's rules. - sm

[ In Reply To ..]

As regards your post, YOU are the one who seems "teenagerish" with your black and white feelings. As you grow older, you will see there is some gray in most issues, and you will find that you didn't know everything, as you thought you did. Hopefully, that will make you more tolerant of others' views. Just look in your own mirror and follow your beliefs individually, without trying to convert every person you see.

In case you didn't know, there is freedom of religion in this country, and there is also the Constitution.

As a nation, we follow the Constitution (or at least we're trying to use it without holier-than-thou people like you trying to change it), and as individuals, we pray to the God of our choice (or no God, if that's what the person believes).

It sounds like you yearn for the USA to become a theocracy like those crazy countries in the Middle East. We then could go into even more countries for no reason, blow them to smithereens, and "God" will be on our side.

The thing I like most about the USA is freedom of religion, where every single person's most intimate thoughts belong to him/her and are not forced down his/her throat by the likes of someone like you.

You can continue to preach on this board all you want, but that doesn't mean you don't look foolish and, at the very least, boorish.

re: God's rules... - hmmm

[ In Reply To ..]
Better a fool in the eyes of men than a fool in the eyes of God.

I am very conservative and come from a very conservative - family. My mother sounded

[ In Reply To ..]
a lot like you when I was younger on this issue. That, of course, is until I ended up pregnant at 15. Things changed when she saw my future going down the drain considering we had just been looking a different scholarships, must less taking care of a child at that age. It is very easy to say what and how you would handle things until it is you or your child. Abortion wasn't an option to me, but it was offered.

Then I have more respect for your mother... - Mary

[ In Reply To ..]
than I would for you...IF you are defending abortion and if your mother changed her mind simply because her daughter became pregnant, she wasn't really against abortion in the first place.

Not necessarily defending it, just saying - people are real quick

[ In Reply To ..]
to make that judgement on what they would do in a situation when really they have no idea because they have not been in it. Obviously, I said I didn't have one, so I don't really agree with abortion, but I definitely agree with "Conservative MT" at being realistic and keeping your children informed. Just saying, my mother was a lot like you, and there was no other choice until reality hit. She knew a 15-year-old wasn't responsible enough to raise a child and also since I had always done really well in school hated to see me give up on college and start a family so young. I ended up graduating as Valedictorian of my class and of course never could afford to finish college.

I now have a daughter that is close to the age I was when I got pregnant, and I actually am considering birth control now even though as far as I know she is not active in that manner in any way. I talk to her constantly about things and don't think I would advocate for abortion if something were to happen.

Yes, my mother has changed her stance on abortion. She is still very conservative, but she also thinks that in cases of incest and rape there should be an option.

Mary, also just out of curosity, what is your - stance on situations where

[ In Reply To ..]
there is incest or rape? Some girls hit puberty as young as 10 years old. Just curious on your thoughts in these typese of situations. Truly, I am not sure how I feel about it.

She probably thinks it warrants a beheading... - Cranberry

[ In Reply To ..]

That is a bit rude. - Conservative MT

[ In Reply To ..]
I understand where Mary is coming from. I used to be that strict about abortion as well. IMO, when it comes to incest or rape, that is a tough one but I feel my position remains the same. As long as the abortion is done early...and even that bothers me. However, if something as horrible as an abortion is going to be done, it should be done when it is just a "bunch of cells." Late term abortions, IMO, are just criminal and should be charged as such.

"Rude" is the only thing these freaks understand. - Gotta speak to em on THEIR level...

[ In Reply To ..]
XOXO

But how much different and how much - worse would your life have been

[ In Reply To ..]
had you taken that option? And how sad would the world be for not getting to experience your beautiful daughter? I would bet that every time you look into her face, you are thankful for the decision you made. Just because your mother changed her mind does not mean that she was wrong to begin with. I can understand why she changed her mind, but I also know that it is wrong to kill babies.

You can call them a bundle of cells or whatever you want to make you feel better (and I know that was not you who said that), but the fact remains that these are babies. Even science maintains that that "bundle of cells" develops into a baby and is "alive." All animal cells are alive. To the poster way above--I have a bachelor's degree in Biology. I am well aware of how biology works, having taken extensive classes in it and even a graduate class in reproductive physiology. I certainly don't need you to teach me about science.

I have never regretted my decision at all. I don't think - that I would advocate for

[ In Reply To ..]
my child to have an abortion either. Although, in the case of rape, I don't know what I would do. I do not like abortion and morally do not believe it is right, but I also think that sometimes we really don't know what we would do until faced with certain decisions. I married her father and now have 2 more children. That was what was right for me, and it worked pretty well, but we are a rarity for those who marry young.

Mary reminds me of my mother, and I knew that I could not go to her and ask for birth control, so I didn't. She was not realistic at all to the fact that kids are kids and do stupid things.

Just one of those things that irritates me when people say "this is what I would do with my child" when they have no idea or "my child would never do that as they were raised to know better".

I think that we need to teach our children about abstinence - and, yes, about birth control.

[ In Reply To ..]
I also think that we need to teach our children that it is morally wrong for your child to pay with his/her life for your mistakes. I think that with all of this "pro-choice" momentum, we forget that many of the people who are seeking abortions are scared children who really don't understand the ramifications of their decisions. I think that it is irresponsible of us, as adults, to preach that killing babies is okay because, too often, it is our children who end up living with the consequences of a hastily made bad decision because they have hear adults say over and over that it is okay and a woman's choice, only to realize too late, that it was a baby and shouldn't have been a choice. There are emotional ramifications to abortion for the person who does the abortion, too. And if you personally think that abortion is murder, how can you compromise and say that it is alright for any reason. I cannot compromise on my morals. I just can't.

I compromise only because - Conservative MT

[ In Reply To ..]
I'm not the one who will have to answer for the abortion a girl/women chooses to have. It isn't my baby. I gladly had my kids when I got pregnant. I find it morally wrong and could never do it myself. I don't understand those who could make that choice. I wonder if they have any morals at all and I wonder just how many make that horrible decision and are haunted by that decision for the rest of their life. There is no simple solution to this issue as so many people feel strongly on both sides. I guess that is also why I compromise. I know we cannot get this made 100% illegal but if we can compromise and allow early ones while making late term abortions illegal....we may have at least saved some babies.

I wish all teens had a mother like you! - sm

[ In Reply To ..]
Your post is right on target. It is very objective and makes perfect sense. I couldn't agree more.

I wish all teens had mothers - nm

[ In Reply To ..]

I wish all teens... - Mary

[ In Reply To ..]
would stop killing their unborn or stop getting pregnant. Being so permissive and "tolerant" doesn't help the situation. I was a responsible teen because I had a mother who cared about me and my life. My daughter-in-law had 2 abortions before she met and married my son. She regrets her decision every day of her life. She's depressed at times and angry at herself. She only wishes she had a mother who had told her what to expect and what she expected from her or even someone who would have talked her out of it. You can't bring back dead babies.

Thank you. - Conservative MT

[ In Reply To ..]
It is nice to hear someone agree with how I've handled things. I've struggled trying to explain my reasoning to some in my family as well. Some believe I'm encouraging him to have sex by making him carry a condom. I guess they can look at it however they want to. When I went out on dates, my mom always made me carry enough change to be able to use a pay phone in case something went bad and I needed her to come pick me up. It was totally a precaution and I feel the same way about my son having condoms. It is just a precaution just in case. Besides...I'm too young to be a grandma. ;)

This is a great post, conservative MT. - Living in the real world NM

[ In Reply To ..]
x

Some of us get a chance... - Mary

[ In Reply To ..]
to LIVE in the real world...some of us get aborted.

I've been accused of being nuts - Conservative MT

[ In Reply To ..]
but at least I think realistically when it comes to my teenage son and things he may or may not try. Let's face it...we all screwed up when we were younger. We all tried stuff whether it was alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, sex and some of us tried all of the above. So what makes us think our kids won't try one or more of those things? So far my son has only tried drinking once and he paid for that one by being sicker than a dog and the taking away of his favorite thing....his truck. But he still called me and told me the truth after he got drunk and I told him straight up that I wasn't happy that he got drunk and I was disappointed about that....however...he did the right thing when it was all said and done and was honest about it and called me to pick him up so he wasn't driving. So I told him I was proud of him for at least doing the right thing in the end even if he was a bonehead for getting drunk. He has been grounded for a little over 3 weeks now and has not complained once and we still get along fine. So whatever I'm doing...it seems to be working well for us.

Mary: Would it be so awful to teach our sons - and daughters SM

[ In Reply To ..]
about all the methods of birth control? Would it be so awful to have the kind of relationship with our daughters/sons that they would not be afraid to have open, honest dialogue about sex/birth control? I see many stories about teens hiding pregnancies because they are afraid of the consequences when telling their parents. If we would just accept that teens do have sex (a large majority) and talk to them about the realities of this behavior? To expect abstinence is ignorance. In order to reach as many teens as possible, this must be taught in the schools.

I did that....you assume I didn't - Mary

[ In Reply To ..]
but my children were also taught that life is precious and not to be thrown away because of an inconvenience. Sex can wait. My children did talk to me about everything and they knew they could. Expecting abstinence until you find the person you want to spend your life with is NOT ignorance. It's the smartest thing a young person can do. Keep it out of the schools. The schools have no business teaching my children about sex.

Are we one nation or a collection of states? - This is an old complaint

[ In Reply To ..]
Under the Articles of Confederation, the complaint from other nations was that they did not know if there should be 1 treaty or 13 treaties. That is why the Constitution was drafted for the sake of bringing about ONE NATION with a strong federal government. The extremists of the GOP know that a theocratic police state will be easier pushed on the state level. I hope they win in a way because our nation needs a good dose of that to show them how wrong it will be.

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