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To those who are pro-abortion (incl.late term infanticide) (sm)


Posted: Apr 4, 2013

have you watched the video?  Would you like it posted?

;

I'm pro early abortion and implacably against late-term - infanticide. Question for you: Instead of

[ In Reply To ..]
titillating your outrage with videos of atrocities and indulging your wish to hate half your fellow Americans, shouldn't you have put those indulgences aside and joined with all opposed to second- and third-trimester abortions to outlaw them?

You might keep your own role in "late-term infanticide", however you choose to define that, in mind next time you open one of those videos. The only ones who are innocent in this are the babies.

You would outlaw second- and third-trimester abortions - with no exceptions...

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for fetal anomalies, health of the mother, rape or incest, e.g.?  


I had an abortion at just a little over 12 weeks, with none of the above issues, so I guess I would have been out of luck under your restrictions.  I don't think there should be any restrictions up through the second-trimester, just as there originally weren't after Roe v. Wade.


The more and more restrictive things become, with some states having only 1 clinic or not many more than that at this point, later and later abortions are going to ironically increase in number due to the lack of easily available resources geographically, as well as increased financial and screening burdens.  Similar to the backfiring effect of not promoting more easily available birth control (which would obviously decrease the number of abortions), anti-choice activists' and politicians' actions and legislative efforts towards abortion restriction will end up causing more later abortions than if resources had been more accessible.  Not saying that's your agenda, "Instead of," hopefully you would want more accessible birth control and clinics in order to achieve your aims.  I still can't agree with you, however, even though I'm not "pro-abortion."  I am pro-choice but would certainly like to see abortion rates decrease, which they have been with increased birth control and education, etc., but  I'm afraid we may see the downward trend start to reverse again and/or a return to more unhealthy, back alley abortions with the continued war on women.  


 


If pro-life people really wanted there to be less abortions, they’d spend more time lobbying for free high-quality birth control and less time in front of abortion clinics.


http://fullymyelinated.wordpress.com/2013/03/28/more-free-birth-control-less-abortion/


 


What are the reasons that women seek late term abortions? Is it just casual whim or is it serious medical conditions and the safety of the mother and fetus or perhaps something else?


  There are no widely recognized data on why women seek late term abortions because they are not required to report the reason they seek the abortion on medical documentation. Besides just medical reasons such as the compromised health of the mother or fetus, the Guttmacher institute lists the following as reasons that women cited for abortions according to their research:


 The reasons women give for having an abortion underscore their understanding of the responsibilities of parenthood and family life. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.

  Most states leave it up to the physician to determine if a situation meets the critiera for a late term abortion such as: preserving the life and health (physical and mental) of the mother or if the infant would not otherwise be viable. So one should realize according to this criteria and the strict legal restrictions on late term abortions that there are probably extremely few cases in which a woman wakes up one day in her 24th week of pregnancy and decides to get an abortion especially considering that it is a painful surgical procedure.


   According to the highly respected, Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), most late term abortions are not on whim and in fact: 


"Women who have late abortions often are disadvantaged. Teenagers, especially those younger than 15 years, and women of minority status disproportionately have late abortions.3 Many of these patients either do not suspect the pregnancy or attempt to conceal it until the pregnancy becomes evident. Menstrual irregularity is an important risk factor.10 Women with irregular menses often discover late that they are pregnant. Other risk factors include young age, low educational attainment, having had a sexually transmitted disease, and ambivalence about the decision to abort.11 Thus, many of the factors associated with late abortions are not easily changed.

Women seeking late abortions are often disadvantaged in other ways, such as lack of knowledge about options, lack of money to pay for the procedure, lack of transportation to a provider, and alcohol or other drug dependence. Some young women are unaware of the availability of late abortions. Since enactment of the Hyde Amendment, the federal government has not paid for indigent women to have abortions, and few states subsidize abortion services. Hence, some women need weeks to raise the money to pay for an abortion, which delays the procedure until the second trimester. Of note, states that fund abortions have significantly lower rates of teen pregnancy, low-birth-weight babies, premature births, and births with late or no prenatal care than do other states.


Geography poses yet another barrier: more than 80% of US counties do not have an abortion provider. Providers of late abortion are even more scarce. In 1993, only 13% of US abortion providers offered abortions at 21 weeks, and the cost averaged more than $1000.12"



Furthermore, there are many health related reasons cited by this JAMA article as to why a woman would need a late term abortion:


Late abortions are fundamentally important to women’s reproductive health.1 Antenatal fetal diagnosis, such as maternal {alpha}-fetoprotein screening and amniocentesis, is predicated on the availability of induced abortion. Although techniques such as chorionic villus sampling and early amniocentesis have allowed earlier diagnosis, by the time results of midtrimester amniocentesis or ultrasound are available, a woman may be beyond 20 weeks’ gestation.13

Illnesses of women and fetal anomalies lead to requests for late abortions. Late abortion can be lifesaving for women with medical disorders aggravated by pregnancy.17 Conditions such as Eisenmenger syndrome carry a high risk of maternal morbidity and mortality in pregnancy, the latter ranging from 20% to 30%.18 In recent years, I have performed late abortions for a Kampuchean refugee with craniopagus conjoined twins and a 25-year-old woman with a 9 x 15-cm thoracic aortic aneurysm from newly diagnosed Marfan syndrome. Cancer sometimes makes late abortion necessary. For example, either radical hysterectomy or radiation therapy for cervical cancer before fetal viability involves abortion.


Incest and rape are other compelling indications. Pregnancies resulting from incest among young teenagers or among women with mental handicaps may escape detection until the pregnancy is advanced. Approximately 32000 pregnancies result from rape each year in the United States; about half of rape victims receive no medical attention, and about one third do not discover the pregnancy until the second trimester.19



GIven that some healthy women with health fetuses, would get an elective, abortion (for a reason unrelated to health), should we still make late term abortion legal?

Yes.  One could argue that just having the legal option of a late term elective abortion is important to protect those women who may not have an explicit physical or mental reason/ fetal viability issue but still because of trauma, youth or poverty simply not carry a pregnancy to term. In this case we must also think, what are our other options….unsafe abortion by amatuers rather than physicians. History has shown that we will not deter women from attempting abortion. Whose life is worth more-(1) the mother who has to choose between being forced to carry an  unintended pregnancy  to term or choose an unsafe abortion that she may die from — or (2) the aborted fetus who never had a chance to live? Whose choice is this to make-society/the state or each individual women who is ultimately the one affected by this choice? Do we believe that a woman should have the power to have input on what occurs in her own body and in her own life and does this right extend to the fetus that is apart of her body?


I think the JAMA article summarized this quite nicely in its conclusions: 


… "The three leading principles of bioethics—respect for persons, beneficence and justice—together provide an ethical mandate for guaranteeing to women throughout the world a legal right to safe abortion." This mandate is especially important for the immature, disadvantaged, and often seriously ill women requesting late abortions in the United States. Regardless of political views on abortion, the scientific evidence is clear and incontrovertible: legal abortion, including late abortion, has been a resounding public health success.

Early abortion is safer, simpler, and less controversial than late abortion. Improving sex education, promoting access to safe and effective contraception, and removing economic and geographic barriers to early abortion can help to reduce the number of late abortions. This is a goal around which there should be broad consensus. Nevertheless, as experience has revealed, the need for late abortion will not disappear. Hence, our continuing responsibility as physicians and as a society is to ensure that these procedures are as safe, comfortable, and compassionate as possible. Women deserve no less from their physicians.



http://amplifyyourvoice.org/u/vanessaaishacoleman/2009/06/01/late-term-abortions

NOPE. Humane exceptions on a case by case - basis. No dead moms, tortured or brainless babies,

[ In Reply To ..]
and so on. But, you did have a message to state, obviously, and you have. In spite of your rather offensive assumptions, we are on the same side in this respect.
Who would be the decider/s for the case by case decisions? - pro-choice
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I don't see where I made rather offensive assumptions considering what limited information I had available about your implacability; I merely asked if you would outlaw it in those circumstances too. Nor do I see how we could be on the same side. An option of unrestricted abortion up through only the first-trimester would be just barely preferable to it being totally illegal, but I would still oppose the former proposal just as much as the latter.
I was talking to OP, so keeping it simple. But - we've had this discussion before. NM.
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x
I apparently missed that. If you're not interested in rehashing it, that's fine. - That I can understand.
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I won't politely acquiesce to anyone who would desire to curtail my or my daughter's reproductive rights even the teensiest bit, and anyone who does desire more limitation in that regard is certainly not on the same side as me ... only those who hope to see the need for abortion decrease in a totally pro-choice way.

Never met someone who is pro-late term abortion. - Sorry. nm

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.

I know no one who is "pro" abortion. - nm

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hmmmm....one who has made it their option of choice? - nm

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nm
"Option of choice" - NK
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does not equate with "pro abortion."
Oh, someone forced them to have it? - nm
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nm
choice - NK
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"Option of choice" does not equate with "someone forced them to have it."

Sounds nice, Sorry, but many late-term babies - have been "aborted," right up to

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point of birth, and will continue to be. It's a big, big world. To state that the people who ask for the abortions and those who perform them are not "pro-abortion," that they prefer to risk going to prison for murder, or that they are neutral on the subject, is not realistic. We belong to the real human race, and people come on all types.

We know, for instance, that roughly 1 in 20 people do not have a conscience as normal people do. They are not constrained by compunction or guilt, and they are are everywhere. In a nation of over 300 million, we're talking over 15 million people. I'm sure you've known some yourself. Think what that alone means next time you wonder how anyone "could do that." LOTS of people could. And laugh thinking of those who imagine otherwise because psychologists have found that, in general, they like being the way they are.

I have a question... - curious

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...for those of you who are anti-choice. If abortion were illegal, would you be in favor of prosecution and jail time for women who've had abortions?

well... they'd probably be dead - boot Hussein straps

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It would probably the physician performing the illegal abortion that would be prosecuted. So, there would be no physicians doing abortions and we'd be back to kitchen table and back alley abortions...

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2013/01/slide-show-roe-v-wade-and-the-struggle-for-legalized-abortion.html#slide_ss_0=1

...which carry a much higher mortality rate than abortions done under sterile, controlled circumstances.

Abortions are going to happen, no matter legal or illegal, but illegal threatens more lives, and that is the reason I am pro-choice.

I am anti-abortion, but I do believe a woman should be able to make a very personal choice without interference from church or government (other than the normal medical regulations). I don't think any woman would choose to use abortion as a form of birth control.

Having said that, I also believe the decision should be made immediately, as soon as possible. Late term abortions, IMO, should be done only if mother's health is at risk and illegal otherwise (I know this opinion may be at odds with some of my Democratic peers).

I guess it goes without saying I also believe liberal, free, and without parental approval (for teens, of course), birth control be available.

I'm amazed legal abortion is still an issue rather than an extreme focus on feasible and realistic prevention.

Paul Ryan answered during the campaign, something - like, the law would be the law.

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A search would bring up his actual words.

So no responses from the anti-choicers? - inquisitive

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I'd like to know their thoughts on this.

It's not a requirement that we answer - In addition - sm

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It's Friday, you can seriously expect you're going to get an answer within minutes of posting do you? It's Friday night. Regardless of the day not everyone spends 24/7 on this board. I myself have been busy and I have not read the board in a couple days.

Plus with a negative of calling people "anti-choicers" it doesn't deserve a reply IMO. I am against abortion 100%, but I am also for the right of a woman to choose.
Nobody said you HAD to answer. I was just curious. - chillout (nm)
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nm
I'm not saying you have to get on board, but you should know... - SM
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that in terms of semantics, there are very good reasons for the pro-choice movement to prefer the term "anti-choice" to "pro-life." For one, no pro-choicer is "anti-life."

I use "anti-choice" myself all the time (and will continue to do so), but it is certainly not meant to be an offense to anyone who is truly for the right of a woman to choose, even if they oppose abortion. Having a problem with the use of "anti-choice" is like saying "gay" should only be used to mean "happy." You'll be alienating yourself from a lot of people who you are apparently somewhat/mostly in the same camp with.

If you really are "for the right of a woman to choose," then that would make you pro-choice and, obviously, the other side *is* anti-choice. Where is the offense? Especially compared to the actual offense of implying that anyone who is not "pro-life" is anti-life.

Anti-abortioners, it's okay to be speak up honestly. - What penalty should a woman who kills

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her baby when she's five months along receive? This is a good and important question.

Prison? For how long? Death penalty?
If you believe it's murder, should the penalty fit the crime?

The babies can't speak out for themselves, and aren't really known as real people to their communities yet. The mothers can and are, though, and most of them have families and friends who would care very much if they were sent to prison for murder. Does this mean something like attending mandatory counseling and some community service would be a more appropriate penalty for getting an abortion?

Please don't just hit "dislike" for being asked to - contribute your thoughts. This is anonymous.

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What's the point of outlawing abortion if there's no punishment for it? There will have to be penalties, or people will just continue. What should they be? Should they be more severe for an 18-week fetus than an 8-week fetus?

Yes, - I would.

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It's murder, plain and simple. I don't know what the penalty would be, but obviously it would be premeditated, so that would carry a heavier sentence.

Thanks for answering. So, let's discuss. Premeditated murder - by a 33-year-old who found she was

[ In Reply To ..]
pregnant again after her husband left her, with 2 children, obsolete office skills, a mountain of debt, and a mortgage payment she has no idea how she's going to meet, even though the house is quite modest.

So she commits premeditated murder. Would, should the factors that went into her decision be counted in deciding on a sentence? After all, this sort of situation would be very common. OTOH, though, the helpless baby who would have been born to her is dead, had her or his life ended before it started.

Premeditated murder usually brings a life sentence in our country, occasionally the death penalty.

So, life sentence?
Assuming she lives in a state that has the death penalty, - I would not agree to that.
[ In Reply To ..]
I am personally against the death penalty, but I think it would give a woman pause before killing her baby if she knew she could spend the rest of her life in prison for it. In the situation you described, there are so many other options for this woman, the best of all would be to put the baby up for adoption - there are so many couples wanting children and not being able to have them (including gay couples).

My thinking is that life begins at conception, so I can't say that it's okay to kill an unborn child any more than I can say it's okay to kill any living person (even the worst of criminals).
I disagree with your anti-choice stance, but I respect that you are against - the death penalty as well.
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Most anti-choice proponents are hypocritical in that they support war and the death penalty, yet call themselves "pro-life."

"...only about one-in-ten (11 percent) Americans hold a “consistent ethic of life” position, opposing legalized abortion and capital punishment."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/figuring-faith/post/like-rick-perry-most-pro-life-americans-ok-with-death-penalty/2011/09/15/gIQAV06XUK_blog.html
Thank you - we can agree on some - things :) (nm)
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^
It's like religion for me. I'm an atheist, almost anti-theist, - but I do respect and admire those...
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who manage to practice their religions non-hypocritically.  Over my lifetime, though, the number I've met personally who I could say that about is no more than I can count on both hands, which is sad indeed.  (Baha'is and Quakers have been the largest of those in number that I've known and the highest degree of genuineness.)


Before anybody complains that this isn't about politics, I'm just using it as an analogy to more fully clarify my above post.  I really don't see the problem with veering a little bit off topic anyway, but your mileage may vary.


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