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Same-sex marriage. Excellent


Posted: Dec 2, 2009

A right to say 'I do'

By Richard Cohen
Tuesday, December 1, 2009

The truth is that if Maj. Nidal Hasan, the accused killer of 13 people at Fort Hood, had entered the officers club there with a nice handbag on his arm, perhaps a Gucci tote, he would have been out of the Army by the end of the week. Since he was merely antisocial, a misfit, an incompetent psychiatrist and a likely Islamic fanatic, he was retained and promoted. This says something about America. On the subject of gays, we are a tad nuts ourselves.

That irrationality comes at me on an almost daily basis. One of the most prominent and strongly held planks of the Republican Party's right wing -- its only wing, it seems to me -- is opposition to same-sex marriage. I know this from the sheer huffy-and-puffiness of commentators such as Bill O'Reilly.

In a recent column, O'Reilly directed us to read something called "The Manhattan Declaration," which was released late last month by a coalition of conservative Christians -- Catholic and Protestant alike. It makes three points. The first concerns abortion, and it will surprise no one that the signatories oppose it. The third -- I know, I know, I'll get back to No. 2 in a moment -- concerns "Religious Liberty" and the occasional efforts of government to make religious institutions conform with public policy. This is a point worth considering.


No. 2 -- the longest section of the declaration -- applies to same-sex marriage. It amounts to a confession of confusion, a cry by the perplexed who have come to think that same-sex marriage is at the core -- the rotten core -- of much that ails our society. Everything from divorce to promiscuity is addressed in this section without any acknowledgement that same-sex marriage, like all marriage, is a way of containing promiscuity (or at least of inducing guilt) and that not having it would not reduce promiscuity in the least. This I state as a fact.

The declaration calls the out-of-wedlock birth rate the "most telling and alarming indicator" of a collapse of the "marriage culture." Yes. But that collapse occurred long before same-sex marriage became an issue, not to mention a reality, and so one has nothing to do with the other.

It remains true that the family is the single best place to raise children. That being the case, same-sex marriage would serve the same purpose. I know of children raised by same-sex partners and they seem no worse for the experience, although -- O'Reilly beware -- they lack a certain knee-jerk antipathy to gays, lesbians, transsexuals and similar people of dissimilar sexuality.

Some of the declaration is couched in religious terms, and with that I cannot argue. But it is its appeal to common sense that I find so appalling. When it comes to same-sex marriage, the declaration conjures up a future where "polyamorous partnerships, polygamous households, even adult brothers, sisters or brothers and sisters living in incestuous relationships" will be legal. Not likely, but this is not the intent of the movement to legalize same-sex marriage any more than marriage between men and women was supposed to permit Henry VIII to have six wives or for Elizabeth Taylor to have seven husbands, one of them twice.

The reasoning in the declaration is so contorted that it brings to mind the dire warnings from years past of what would happen if blacks and whites were allowed to marry -- not to mention similar references to what the Almighty purportedly intended. This sort of comparison irritates many African Americans who oppose same-sex marriage, but I can see no reason why the civil right extended by the Supreme Court in Loving v. Virginia (interracial marriage) is any different than the one sought by gays and lesbians. Marriage has certain economic advantages, and to withhold them based on nothing more than religious preference or, at bottom, a certain disgust entrenched in convention, is clearly a civil rights matter.

In the end, the courts will decide this question. That's what they're for. It's doubtful that the voters of Virginia would have allowed Mildred and Richard Loving to tie the knot back in 1967 any more than the public in general approves of same-sex marriage today. Such a legal case, spearheaded by the political odd couple of David Boies and Ted Olson, is likely to reach the Supreme Court in the not-too-distant future. Then, I suspect, wedding bells will ring through the land -- and, after a pause, America will wonder what the fuss was all about.

;

Great! - Sam

[ In Reply To ..]
As the proud mother of a gay son I sure hope you're right about this. He and his partner are wonderful people. They work hard, pay taxes and should have the same rights as everyone else. My state just voted same-sex marriage down. Very disappointing to say the least.

tea baggers??? hehehehe thats not ugly, I think - gay people would laugh too!

[ In Reply To ..]
:)

Thought you didn't like tea baggers???? - nm

[ In Reply To ..]
.

That is a hateful thing to say . . . . - emanon

[ In Reply To ..]
Did that remark serve to provide any kind of meaningful input? Maybe you should go back and repeat 5th grade this year.

I, too, am the proud mother of a gay son, and I can only hope that one day soon he will be treated as an equal by society.

When are - you

[ In Reply To ..]
goofy (and nm you are just plainly mean and nasty. Go sit in the corner, you bad little child) people going to figure out that "tea baggers" has more than one definition now? There are many many terms that have more than one definition that have arisen from a term that may be derogatory or not. It depends on how dirty your mind is whether you want to be offended by "tea baggers." So, to all of you dirty-minded people who are offended by the term "tea-bagger" when used in the political context, GET OVER IT! Its use is widespread, not just on this board.

Well, I do suppose it's preferable to being called - A Nazi

[ In Reply To ..]
by Pelosi no less.

Their response just reflects how they see life in general - Colleen

[ In Reply To ..]
With a large amount of tunnel vision. Take it in the most offensive way, no matter how far off the mark it is, and react with rage and blind hatred.

Thank you for your post. Seems like every time the word "tea bagger" shows up here, certain people react as I mentioned above when in reality this is a political term when used in this context. Can't turn on the TV or get on the web without seeing this term, and most of the time it is being used in the political context, including by some of the right-wing hate jocks. It is just a word. Deal with it. Surely, you have found something new to pretend to be offended about by now.

in order to protect - browser

[ In Reply To ..]
to protect your right to carry signs with Obama defaced as hitler and a witch doctor, you have to accept being called a t-bagger. After all, its only free speech. Must everything - including language - be exactly YOUR way.

Double Standard - Unreal

[ In Reply To ..]
Oh, so it was okay when the same thing was done to Bush?

http://www.ringospictures.com/index.php?page=20090816

it tickles me - browser
[ In Reply To ..]
speaking of Bush, that there are people that still believe he is a good ole plain spoken country gentlmen rather than a coddled rich kid from the NE who thought he deserved to be president. I think that because of the posters yesterday pining for the days of BBQ at the WH.
It's not right when either side does it but don't be a hypocrite - anon
[ In Reply To ..]
To be compared to Hitler is just rude especially when the majority of folks are just trying to get their government to listen.

Besides - my husband said that the Hitler mustache is the easiest one to maintain and Hitler had to go and ruin it for everyone! LOL.
just rude especially when the majority - browser
[ In Reply To ..]
you think Obama does not find it rude to have his picture distorted like that just because you disagree with his policy and are foolish enough to allow television performers to scare you?

Ha ha? Nothing funny about Hitler, nothing.
Hitler - anon
[ In Reply To ..]
No, there's not a darned thing funny about Hitler. Both my MIL and FIL lived in refugee camps for years to avoid my FIL's being taken into the 3rd Reich, going from place to place on old trains seeing things such as rebels with swords and on those swords were multiple human heads. They were lucky. They escaped.

I'm sure Obama did think it was rude, as did Bush when they did it to him, but you'd have to have a pretty thick skin to be president. It's not a job I'd take for anything.

This "so it was okay when" stuff is - meaningless.
[ In Reply To ..]
It's just facts. You can like it or lump it. It happens all the time. No one said "it was okay when...."
Don't throw stones at glass houses - sm
[ In Reply To ..]
I agree, and it's there whether we like it or not. I just can't stand people getting really mad over something that would otherwise be okay if it were them or someone close to them doing it.
a stitch in time saves 9 - browser
[ In Reply To ..]
a watched pot never boils. He who laughs last.
you are not going anywhere with this - anon
[ In Reply To ..]
you don't like it when Obama is depicted as Hitler, but you were okay with Bush depicted as Hitler. You are not okay with Obama depicted with monkey features to the face, but you were okay with Bush depicted with monkey features to his face. You are not okay with Obama depicted as the Joker, but you were okay with Bush depicted as the Joker.

You have a double standards and when someone brings that up you go off topic.

Typical double standards.
Who said? - who said that
[ In Reply To ..]
No one said it was okay. Your assumptions are gross. No one said it was okay.
no I never said I was okay with any of that - browser
[ In Reply To ..]
Some posters are like Fox news - they think they know how people think and feel and just make statements presuming their guesses are fact. Proud to be a MSNBCer.
LOL. how ridiculous. You think FOX is unfair but - MSNBC is.. wow.. get real.nm
[ In Reply To ..]
nm
One more saying - anon
[ In Reply To ..]
When arguing with a fool, be sure he/she is not similarly occupied. I'm done.

That is good news - just me/hmmm

[ In Reply To ..]
My sister in CT just went to a gay wedding last weekend and she said it was really nice, the brides were beautiful and they had a very nice ceremony and celebration. I was surprised CT allows gay marriage because they are a pretty conservative state, so that was good news to hear.

Every person has the right to marry whomever they choose (a human being of legal age that is, just to clarify so that I don't get slammed with replies about people marrying animals or children). It is not anyone's right to stand in the way of another couple's happiness. Times are changing. I remember in the not too distant past inter-racial marriages were not heard of. I say live and let live. It is not anyone's business to stand in the way of someone else's happiness (especially when its people you don't know). My marriage with my husband is as strong as the day we married, and I wish the same for all other couples no matter who they choose for their partner.

I do hope to see more states approving same sex marriages. It doesn't make sense not to.

Marriage - Vikefan

[ In Reply To ..]
There was a time when you weren't supposed to marry out of your nationality or religion.

Connecticut is a blue state. I lived there from 1994-2000 and really liked the people and the area.

As far as same sex marriages, well, to each his/her own. Who am I to judge them? Is my own attic clean enough where I can condemn gay marriage? I honestly do not believe people "turn" homosexual. I'm hetero and just cannot possibly dream of ever being with another woman no matter how hard I tried. Yuck. I imagine they feel the same way about the opposite sex. I do think it's abnormal and that certainly makes it something they cannot help. Homosexuals generally have a way shorter life span than "normal" people and some of that is due to suicide. It's sad. I heard a point brought up the other day that I'd never considered - marriage = less promiscuity. True, people still have affairs but with that commitment, people might be less inclined to fool around.

I liked your post thank you - just me/hmmm

[ In Reply To ..]
Your post was respectful of people who are gay/lesbian (at least I felt that way). You said what your feelings were and didn't state it as though it was fact.

Right now I'm in a heterosexual marriage, but there are other woman I have been attracted to. Emotionally wise...I would rather be with a woman. Sexually wise, before married I was with a woman one night, but don't remember whether I felt an attachment that way (that was 40 years ago), but I did have strong feelings for her and loved her, although it was more sister like.

So, myself I could see being with a woman. God forbid anything ever happen to my other half, I honestly do not think I would ever want to find another relationship with the opposite sex. As they say....once is enough.

But I enjoyed your post and I pretty much feel the same about some of it.

Thanks for posting.

P.S. - I miss CT. Been away 43 years and still miss it. - just me/hmmm (no message)
[ In Reply To ..]
x
Just me/hmmm: Thanks for your honesty. - emanon
[ In Reply To ..]
I have always identified myself as heterosexual, but if I am to be totally honest, I have been attracted to other women. Really, I think if most of us were soul-baringly honest, most of us have probably been attracted to the same sex at least one time. I personally don't like the society-forced "labels". I think most everyone is bisexual, at least to some degree, and I believe you fall in love with who you fall in love with. I would like to see all the labels disappear.
Thank you - first time I've ever agreed - just me/hmmm
[ In Reply To ..]
with you on something. Truth be told if we get off of political issues and talk about other issues we'd have more in common than we think. I do think you are correct. There are some very beautiful woman I am attracted to. Then there are those gorgeous hunks we see on TV (like Gerard Butler, etc) when you see them off camera and how they act just makes you say ewwww! Ha ha.

All I know is one marriage to the opposite sex is enough for me in one life time. I will never ever put myself through this again if that time ever comes. Let me have a girlfriend relationship after this. You know someone who actually listens. Someone who doesn't tell me not to feel a certain way because he doesn't. Someone who doesn't want sex no matter how horrible you feel and then when they don't get their way they pout and yell and make you feel guilty (oh yea, and tell you your dumpy), etc, etc, etc. It's too much of an emotional drain. So give me a girlfriend to go shopping with, movies, come over for margaritas and dance around the house and I will be happy for eternity.

I too hate labels. I'd love to see labels and political parties disappear and have the good or bad of someone be measured by their person and not a label.
LOL, "just me/hmmm", will wonders never cease? - emanon
[ In Reply To ..]
I know what you mean, though. I have had two marriages, and at this stage in my life, I will never get married again. I'm leaving myself open for whatever, although same-sex couples have the same issues and arguments as heteros, but I do think that no one can understand a woman like another woman. I think that is why so many women go the other route as they get older -- you've done your procreation thing, and it becomes more about companionship. But boy, I sure wouldn't kick Johnny Depp or Mike Rowe outta my bed!! :P
OK, go get a chatroom... - Please
[ In Reply To ..]
:(
LOL - see message - just me/hmmm
[ In Reply To ..]
Definitely with you on Johny Depp. LOL

Every couple does have their arguments, but you're right about being understood. And since I was never able to have kids just one more addition to the cruel hoax someone has played on me. :-)

I am glad to see we agree on some issues. As for politics I think I will still disagree with you and will give you a hard time, and likewise I'm sure you will dish it right back to me. :-) But in politics who doesn't like a good fight. LOL.

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