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if you're squeamish, don't look. This is supposed to be a 12-week old fetus.

Posted: Mar 12, 2013

;

Nice - BillyJoe

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Against abortions then dont have one.

I thought it was going to be a link - thanks a lot

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I clicked while debating whether or not I wanted to look but then boom! in my face.

Sorry. Drama begets Drama - BillyJoe

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But from the first post i think it would be safe to assume its not gonna be a pretty thread.

Yeah - abortion is a "different kind" of - homicide - purely optional.

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You wouldn't say that any other kind of homicide shouldn't be illegal, but this one is just "up to you". I don't think I could get away with saying what I think you are...but one day, you'll find out to your bitter regret.

Are you familiar with - sm

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Matthew 7:1?

Those FOR legal abortion should LIKE the 12-week limit. - Those few who truly believe that

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all abortion is murder will never change their mind and will always fight it.

However, most antiabortionists lack that degree of commitment and fall into two camps

* Game players who may not like it but mainly have opposed it because that's what their side did.
* Those who are uncomfortable with abortion, and especially second-trimester abortions and beyond, but would be willing to accept an abortion law with tighter limits.

And, of course, all combinations of the two.

In any case, a 12-week limit would take much of the steam out of this issue on the right--something to be devoutly desired.

The abortion issue is used to divide and conquer American voters and in the process, insidiously and continually, persuade people to fight for things that have nothing at all to do with abortion, such as yet more tax shelters for the wealthy, phony war, special protections for oil companies, and so on and on.

Note that in all this time by using the abortion issue all those irrelevant goals have been achieved many times over, repeal of abortion never. This has been much too good a tool for the GOP leadership to give up.

But now these non-mainstream state-level conservatives have taken this idea into their heads...

Nope. - BillyJoe

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I do not agree. The statistics show that that majority are under the 8 weeks anyway. No BS law needs to be passed to pacify anyone. It is a woman's right and a woman's decision. PERIOD. The right can keep blowing their steam, as long as they continue to limit access to things that PREVENT unwanted pregnancy in the first place. They care only about their desire to appear righteous and above the heathens, then turn around and rail about food stamps and medicaid, etc. They care nothing about finding women in back alleys and dead newborns in garbage cans. A 6 week fetus the size of a sesame seed terminated in the womb or a newborn living breathing on its own outside the woman thrown amongst cigarette butts and half a sandwich. Just so they can claim they are holier than though and such good people with their halos.

======

The doctors who are challenging Arizona’s law, through their lawyers, lay out the birth defects that lead women to give up wanted pregnancies: malformation or absence of the brain or kidneys, severe heart defects, or excess fluid that leads to serious brain damage. When women think they are experiencing a normal pregnancy, structural abnormalities like these—as opposed to chromosomal problems—often aren’t detected until the standard 18-week ultrasound. At that point, there are often follow-up appointments and consultations to be scheduled, not to mention heart-wrenching thinking to be done. Do we really want a state to take it upon itself to rush women through this process, against the better judgment of their doctors? “By the time a diagnosis is confirmed by a specialist capable of diagnosing these anomalies, the pregnancy has often progressed beyond 20 weeks,” the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecologists explains in its brief supporting the doctors who have challenged Arizona’s law. “Perhaps most importantly, however, given that almost 60 percent of Arizona women are obese, there are many patients in whom a detailed ultrasound examination will not reveal structural anomalies in the fetus until those anomalies become more pronounced, and thus visible, later in the pregnancy—often after 20 weeks.”

Then there are the health crises mothers confront mid-pregnancy. ACOG provides an upsetting list, including heart conditions, cancer, lupus, and diabetes. The problem with allowing for abortions only to avert death or the irreversible impairment of a major bodily function, ACOG explains, is that “to require a physician to postpone care until that point is to put the patient’s health in serious jeopardy and to compromise the physician’s ethical duty to the patient.”

As long as two people are involved, it's not about - about the rights of one of them. And

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that's from someone who's always been "pro-choice." However: Although we disagree on when one person becomes two, we all KNOW without any doubt at all that this does occur at some point long before birth.

Although I have always been pro-choice, I have never in my life said no one should be able to tell me what to do with "my" body. That's a profoundly dishonest argument.

Any time limit should be based on development of cognition. The current age of "viability" is a phony, irrelevant marker that has nothing to do with whether a person is involved and should be discarded. Medical intervention is always rolling that back, anyway, and will soon be bringing fertilized ova to term for women who can't carry their own babies.

After that limit, two people should be legally recognized and abortion allowed for only a few, carefully monitored reasons that are designed to provide best protection possible for both people involved, case by case, no simple-minded rules allowed.

Missing my point - BillyJoe

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My point is outlawing abortion at any period of gestation is not going to stop it from happening. What it is going to do is cause women to go to back alleys (well at least the poor ones, the rich ones will still be able to get them, they will say oh i am going for a weekend at the "spa") and women/teens dumping their live breathing babies in a garbage can or wherever else they find to dump it. Or they will have them whether they want them or not and starve them or tie them to their bed, or put them in cages or just beat the living crap out of them until they day and they finally can be free of them.

I and other women are the ones who should make the choice about what to do about "their body" because they know what they can and cannot handle and what the are capable and not capable of doing. You might be able to handle a baby with severe birth defects and have the economically and emotionally. Another woman might not, if she is forced to have that child, the child could suffer its entire short life. You might have the guts to give an unwanted baby up for adoption after its born but what if someone has an overbearing mother and guilts the person into keeping it "OMG how are you going to give your own child to a stranger!!"

Development of cognition? How the heck is that proven? The case-by-case should be based on the WOMAN CARRYING IT, not what judge joe schmoe thinks is reasonable, BOTTOM LINE.

Pro-lifers need to STOP trying to restrict access to birth control. Catholic priests who sheltered child molesters need to STOP trying to restrict access to birth control. Politicians need to STOP trying to restrict access to birth control. The only thing proven to decrease the number of abortions is BIRTH CONTROL!!!!! If you are against abortion DONT HAVE ONE.

Yes, yes, yes. - Your last paragraph especially.

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Which bears repeating.

"Pro-lifers need to STOP trying to restrict access to birth control. Catholic priests who sheltered child molesters need to STOP trying to restrict access to birth control. Politicians need to STOP trying to restrict access to birth control. The only thing proven to decrease the number of abortions is BIRTH CONTROL!!!!! If you are against abortion DONT HAVE ONE."

Sorry I missed your initial point. Regarding cognition, - we would establish when we know

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it cannot have occurred, we as in science, and set the line as late as possible there. Judges can have nothing to do with that. I'm not talking about flipping a coin here.

As for your last paragraph, absolutely! I'm reading a book by a worker in Africa who witnessed the rise in babies born with AIDS, part of a baby boom across the continent, because the U.S. under W insisted the U.N. drop its normal family planning efforts and promote only abstinence as birth control. (As if millions of women even have a say in it.) As far as I'm concerned, this is yet another atrocity that can be hung around his neck, and of course all those who voted for him, at least those who reelected him knowingly anyway.

development of congition - doe

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I can't agree that the development of cognition is any kind of reasonable basis for limits regarding abortion.

I'm not even sure infants are cognizant, much less a fetus in utero. It's hard enough for medicine to determine whether adults in comas are cognizant.

What exactly will I "find out"/ - BillyJoe

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I am saying it is not my business to tell someone what to do with their body. Last I checked there are no forced abortions in the US. You think making abortions illegal will magically stop them...guess what it wont. I am more focused on reducing unwanted pregnancies in the first place. But psychotic men in this country and boy touching priests want to control that and do away with birth control which helps do just that.

Oh and FYI

Among the 39 areas that reported gestational age at the time of abortion for 2009 (Table 7), the majority (64.0%) of abortions were performed at ≤8 weeks' gestation, and 91.7% were performed at ≤13 weeks' gestation. Few abortions (7.0%) were performed at 14–20 weeks' gestation, and even fewer (1.3%) were performed at ≥21 weeks' gestation. Among the 30 reporting areas that provided data on gestational age every year during 2000–2009 (Table 8), the percentage of abortions performed at ≤13 weeks' gestation increased only slightly. However, within this gestational age range, a shift occurred toward earlier gestational ages, with abortions performed at ≤8 weeks' gestation increasing 12%. The percentage increase in abortions performed at ≤8 weeks' was greatest from 2000 to 2004 but continued from 2005 to 2009. Throughout the period of analysis, the percentage of abortions performed at >13 weeks' gestation remained low (<10%), and abortions performed at ≥16 weeks' gestation decreased 13%–22% from 2000 to 2009.

Among the subset of abortions performed at ≤13 weeks' gestation in 2009, 35.2% were performed at ≤6 weeks' gestation, and 34.6% were performed at 7–8 weeks' gestation (Table 9). Among the remaining abortions at ≤13 weeks' gestation, the percentage contribution was progress

responding to exploitation with exploitation is not the answer - nm

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There was no question - BillyJoe

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It was just a typical "look at me" drive by post and run.

yes, it was a drive by - but you don't have to repeat it

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PHONY! - Tell the truth

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This is a fake - where is the umbilical cord and does anyone really think a 12 week old fetus makes faces or is pink like a newborn?

It's obviously not a real fetus. - nm

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.

Notice I said "Supposedly" (no message) - Truthhurts

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.

it was exploitative, imo - nm

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Definitely. I just wonder - sm

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if she actually thought we'd fall for it.

Definitely further diminishes whatever credibility factor is left regarding the OP's intention to engage in a serious, intelligent, "truthful" conversation.

I'm always very confused - Fanatical Hypocrite

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that the Republican Party is both pro-war and pro-life. To clarify, I'm talking about the Republican Party establishment. On an individual basis, many Republicans were against the war or are pro-choice just as I've known Democrats who are the opposites. I've never truly understood the idea that killing full-grown civilians is right, but killing an undeveloped and likely unthinking fetus to spare it a potential life of misery and abandonment is wrong.

As I stated before, I don't believe in second or third trimester abortions. I don't know where the line between collection of cells and human being lies, but after the first trimester I feel the fetus has developed too much. But as I stated in my post earlier this week, I believe exceptions should be made for the safety of the mother, rape and incest, extreme deformity or medical condition, etc.

Nonetheless, I know for a fact that the Iraqi and Afghan civilians are human beings. Now I understand the counter argument that I'm comparing apples and oranges, because not all human life is equal. We're talking about miniature Americans (who are physically inseparable from their host in the first trimester) here, not dirty foreigners who live in the wrong place and have the wrong kind of neighbors. Perhaps the fact that my neighbors are meth cooks and my hope that if the cops ever do decide it's worth their time they won't just carpet bomb the area that makes me biased, but I have to say that the culture of life is off to a bad start.

So, my proposal:
1. Use more birth control to prevent the problem in the first place.
2. Adopt instead of breed.
3. Let's stop killing and maiming innocent adults and children, then once we've got that situation under control, we'll solve the abortion issue.

Oh for goodness' sake. I thought it was medical professionals on this board. - SM

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I was recently burdened while in prayer

to sculpt a life-size scale model of a 12 week old

from conception Pre-born Baby

These tiny resin dolls can be used in schools & pregnancy

centers to educate

http://www.onetinylife.org/menu.htm

Here is an actual photo of a 12 week fetus.

Here is another:

Thanks. I don't read her posts, so I didn't realize - that's what she'd done. nm

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x

Your loss, not mine :-) - Truthhurts

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Maybe if you would read other people's posts, you'd get a better understanding of who is posting and what the posts are really about.

But just because you don't like me, you decide I'm a waste of time...well, i'm starting to feel the same way about you...only difference is I'm proud to use a moniker every time whereas you never do.

Have a good evening.

Fetus - Neesy

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Thank you for clarifying the issue and posting the accurate photos. Talk about "pulling on people's heart strings,eh" i.e. trying to make us sympathize with those who would try to change the current law of Roe vs. Wade

What your post does is just prove that a 12-week fetus - Truthhurts

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is what I put in my post. Your first photo proves it's size, now doesn't it? And it is good to use for education.

For the poster who called it phony, I DID say it was "supposedly"...but according to your photos, it is the correct size and almost perfect...and that is the point I was trying to get across.

Another poster argued that a 12-week fetus is NOT a living breathing thing after I posted an earlier article where a 12-week fetus has a heartbeat after AZ was voting on the bill.

What? The first photo is the exact same doll as yours, and it's the wrong size. - SM

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Not only is the detailing if the doll's features ridiculous, but the scale is too. Here's another overly facially detailed replica, but at least it's actual size. As you can see, the Facebook hoax doll is nearly twice as large as an actual 12-week fetus. That doll is what NONE OF US looked like at 12 weeks in the womb (and I still can't believe I have to tell any medical professional this).

http://www.pregnancydietplanhq.com/12-week-fetus-and-pregnancy-ultrasound-and-week-12-pregnancy-symptoms/

As a poster in the DU thread I originally posted said: "The accuracy of the model is only relevant because 1) They are being dishonest and 2) They are springing an emotional response to sidestep the issues of right to choose and liberty to control one's own body and to plan one's own life trajectory."

No, TH, it's never good to use dishonesty for education. Not creationism (or "intelligent design," pfft) nor inaccurate fetus replicas nor any other folderol that the religious right will come up with to obfuscate the truth (let's talk about Texas textbooks and the subject of slavery, e.g.).

Below is a link to a real 12-week fetus in a human hand for more confirmation of how ludicrous the doll in the original post is in terms of size, etc. (and I keep calling it a "doll" rather than a model or a replica because to me it's neither of those in any sense and is as idealized as any doll is) This photo actually does somewhat deserve a warning for the squeamish (there's no blood involved, though), so I'll simply link it.

The "another poster" would be me, and I'm calling shennanigans. - Vamonos Pest

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There is no way that you are an MT. If you are, then I suggest you get out your old books from school and review the fetal development section(s). If you think that a fetus is a living BREATHING thing at 12 weeks, you are wrong. If you think detection of a heartbeat equals viability (again... ability to live outside the womb), you are wrong. BTW, the heartbeat actually starts before 12 weeks.

Anyhow, if I am the "another poster," and if you for some reason posted the pic of the Jesus Camp style fetal action figure to prove me (or others participating in that thread) wrong, sorry, but it didn't work.

If you'd like to make donations for birth control - I can help get you started.

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I've given my yearly $1000 already.

After all, we are all in this together, no?

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