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Westboro Church wins
Posted: Mar 2, 2011
It was an 8-1 vote - I think Justice Scali was the lone dissenter, but I'm not 100% sure.
I salute groups like The Patriot Guard Riders who protect the families of these fallen heros.
From CNN:
A Kansas church that attracted nationwide attention for its angry, anti-gay protests at the funerals of U.S. military members has won its appeal at the Supreme Court, an issue testing the competing constitutional limits of free speech and privacy.
The justices by a 8-1 vote on Wednesday said members of the Westboro Baptist Church had a right to promote what they call a broad-based message on public matters such as wars.
The father of a fallen Marine had sued the small church, saying those protests amounted to targeted harassment and an intentional infliction of emotional distress.
"Speech is powerful. It can stir people to action, move them to tears of both joy and sorrow, and– as it did here– inflict great pain," Chief Justice John Roberts wrote. "On the facts before us, we cannot react to that pain by punishing the speaker."
What I don't get... - no1joe
[ In Reply To ..]And I'll have to look more into this later, but if WBC's claim was they have a right to protest war, and if that was the justification for this decision, it's a bunch of bull.
Fred Phelps himself has been filmed saying (and I can't directly quote him, but I can remember the general message) that his justification for protesting US military/soldiers was because there was an attempted bombing of his church a few years back. He sees soldiers being killed, for example with IEDs (hence the signs stating such), as God punishing America for the attempted bombing on his church (where I don't beleive... and I could be wrong... that there were ever charges made in that case). This is his own twisted vendetta done deliberately to harass and cause emotional distress ... it has nothing to do with war protest or a message on public matters. It's so sad that these people are allowed to stage a side show during a day of mourning for soldiers who have died... and this is coming from someone who does very much believe in free speech.
I'll look more into it later when I run out of work. Thanks for posting.
Yeah!! No1joe and tpotmt are having a moment!! - tpotmt
[ In Reply To ..]We agree! I knew we'd find common ground one of these days!! :-)
I have to do a little more digging myself after work. I want to do some research on hate speech and the law. I'm wondering exactly how hate speech is defined by the law and how these creeps can say those hateful (I need a stronger word than hateful) things and it not be considered hate directed at the family of the fallen soldier.
I agree that it has nothing to do with war protesting for Fred and Westboro. He was planning on protesting at Christina-Taylor Green's funeral in Tuscon, wasn't he? I think he ended up on someone's talk radio show in return for not protesting, but I don't know the name of the talk show host. Does anyone else remember that?
Seems like it was someone named Savage, maybe...? - yep, i remember that.
[ In Reply To ..]nm
Michael Savage? - nm
[ In Reply To ..]nm
LOL! - no1joe
[ In Reply To ..]Yes, we did. See... I'm not that bad : ) Anyhow, with brief checking, I found a Yahoo article that stated the following:
Chief Justice John Roberts wrote the opinion for the court. Justice Samuel Alito dissented.
Roberts said free speech rights in the First Amendment shield the funeral protesters, noting that they obeyed police directions and were 1,000 feet from the church.
"Speech is powerful. It can stir people to action, move them to tears of both joy and sorrow, and â as it did here â inflict great pain. On the facts before us, we cannot react to that pain by punishing the speaker," Roberts said. "As a nation we have chosen a different course â to protect even hurtful speech on public issues to ensure that we do not stifle public debate."
There is NOT anything in WBC's message at these funerals that equals "public issues." WBC sees soldiers dying as REVENGE... plain and simple. Here are a few quotes from a documentary a few years back.
First let's start with the lovely Sara Phelps, Rev. Phelps's granddaughter, and her response to the question âSo why are we thanking God for IEDs then?â asked of her while picketing.
Response: âIâll tell you why. Are you ready? Itâs exciting. Ten years ago, the fags set off an IED at our church, and it says in the Bible, the Lord says âVengeance is mine. I shall repay.â Ten years later, do you think itâs a coincidence that these American soldiers are getting blown up by IEDs? No. No itâs not. Itâs not a coincidence. Because when you start messinâ with the servants of the most high God, God is gonna kick your ass. Period!â
And let's get to everyone's favorite mummy, Fred Phelps himself in the same documentary:
âAnd there was a time when the opposition to us was at a fever pitch in this town. They pretended that when the bomb went off out here it was no big deal. And the police chief called a press conference and said there is no evidence that this was⦠that the Phelpsâ and Westboro Baptist was the target because a bomb like that went off over on Wanamaker on or about the same time. So we put up a $5000 reward offering in the paper and found the guys. Washburn students made an IED or 2 or 3 and set them off in various places to take the onus off it as though it were arbitrary and capricious rather than an intentional⦠an intent to bomb our church.â
âThe courts, after we finally exposed the guys and brought the feds into it and all the rest of it, they prosecuted only one of them. We had all their names. And that only for a misdemeanor. And his sentence was 16 days in jail.â
âWe were under intense pressure from every quarter, and I frankly donât know how we survived it. I donât know how any human beings could go through what this evil country, state, city put us through. And so itâs no surprise to me that God is now picking off these miserable brats.â
âWe have picketed dozens, maybe scores, maybe not 100 yet, but an awful lot of those soldiers are getting killed by IEDs. And the reason is that we see that those are the things that weâve been warning this evil country about. That Godâs gonna punish this nation.â
âYou can hardly imagine a more fitting way to severely punish a people than to begin to blow the cream of their young manhood and womanhood to smithereens in Iraq, and the forum or the venue to preach that is the funeral of some soldier, some young American soldier who has been blown to smithereens by an IED. It is as though the Lord God said âYou raised him for the devil in hell. Iâm giving him back to you in a body bag. You partook as a part of that evil nation that set off a bomb, an IED, in my servantsâ church. That is not a minor matter.ââ
This clown - in his own words - basically states that God is killing soldiers in Iraq as punishment for defending a country that helped bomb his church. Um... that's personal. Not a public issue. So I guess I still don't get the justification for this.
Would it be constitutional to protest in front of the so-called church? - wondering
[ In Reply To ..]It seems like it would also be constitutional to have rallies and protest the so-called church, if anyone had the time to do such things.
Probably not. You would be violating the constitution - Backwards Typist
[ In Reply To ..]Freedom of Religion.
I am SO disappointed in our justice(?) system lately. - Backwards Typist
[ In Reply To ..]I am speechless that they won't protect our fallen soldiers.
Right now I see a sign by them that America is doomed. I think they have that right!
My unpopular standpoint.... - Kendra
[ In Reply To ..]I do not like the hate that spews out of the dumbholes of the folks from the Westboro Baptist Church. I think that it is disgusting that they bastardize the Bible to fit their nasty little agenda, BUT the military men whose funerals they are protesting fight to preserve their right to do just that. Wouldn't it be a shame if they were civilly punished for exercising that right? I do think that it should be made unlawful to protest within X distance from ANY funeral and then they can be dealt with criminally, but as much as I dislike them and their message, we cannot punish them for exercising their first amendment right to free speech while breaking no existing laws. This right is here to protect offensive speech. Otherwise, it would not be needed. Nobody needs a constitutional amendment to talk about soft fuzzy bunnies.
You're right - no1joe
[ In Reply To ..]My stance on gay rights makes WBC particularly disgusting to me, and if we were talking about their right to protest gay funerals here, as much as this pains me to say, they would have the right to put on their side show X-amount of feet away because, in their twisted minds, they are addressing a social issue. (I really can't believe I just said that... makes me want to hop in the shower and wash it off).
However, from what I've read, this recent ruling allows these protests to take place at military funerals because they're protected as far as exercising their 1st amendment rights regarding public issues... and that's BULL. It took me all of about a half-hour to find video of Phelps and family stating that the military funeral protests are being done basically because of their sense of getting a raw deal concerning the attempted bombing of their church. That makes it a personal issue, not a social issue, and hence that justification does not fly in my book. It's harrassment. They're targeting these poor families out of a sense of revenge for being wronged by the city, state, and country. And it's sad that they're getting away with it.
Now the Phelps' are a clever bunch. They're not stupid people... they have attorneys in the family. I find it odd that just recently WBC's justification for the military protests has changed from their church being bombed to the country's protection of gays. They know what they're doing, and they sugar-coated it in order to win a verdict if you ask me.
I don't think that it is really "personal"... - Kendra
[ In Reply To ..]in that they have something against the particular service members whose funerals they are protesting, thus, I don't really think that it is harassment (though I do see why the families feel harassed). I think that somewhere in their twisted sick minds that the "church" members do think it is a social issue, either way. I really dislike them, but I also do not think that they should have lost this case. My opinion, of course, and I hate that it is my opinion. I want to think differently and make them pay, but it is a slippery slope.
Like that has never been done before...bottom line.. - it appears reading post after
[ In Reply To ..]post about freedom of speech, most people love it when they agree with it, but hate it when they don't. Doesn't matter what motivates the speech...it is still free speech.
That being said, it IS disgusting what they do. I personally am disgusted when I see guys in sheets walking down the street or guys with swastikas on their arms. But..that's their right. I am personally disgusted by a group of men who think that they have the right to have sex with young boys. But they can have a website and say whatever they want. Where do you start saying you can exercise freedom of speech but the other guy can't, just because you don't like their agenda?
I am personally disgusted when I see someone touting free speech until that free speech doesn't agree with them and they attack the speaker.
If free speech hinged on the personal disgust of the individual...we would be right back where we were before the bill of rights. You have to take the ugly with the rest. That, my friend, is part of the price of freedom, and in my books, in the grand scheme of things, worth it.
That "church" is doing nothing but heaping coals of fire on its own head. What goes around comes around, and it will. Maybe not in our time when we can see it...but it will.
My point was... - no1joe
[ In Reply To ..]That there's a difference between exercising one's right to free speech and using that right to harass someone.
WBC was well known for saying that they were protesting at military funerals because they see the soliders as people defending a country that supported the bombing of their church. This is a personal vendetta... nothing more... and it causes emotional distress to the families of these fallen soldiers as well as their friends, fellow soldiers, and communities. They just changed their tune lately in order to make it sound like a public issue to that along the lines of America endorsing homosexuality. They're being slick. And I was questioning whether or not their true motivation behind these protests (being ticked that someone tried to bomb their church) was ever brought up in court, or was WBC just taken at their word that they're protesting because America condones homosexuality or whatever public issue they pulled out of their hat.
So, can everyone do this? Can I get a group of people together and start publicly picketing people I don't like or I feel have wronged me in some way as long as I hold another sign having to do with a public issue? It's nonsense.
Baloney - Wrong no matter how you look at it
[ In Reply To ..]These people really get in my craw. I just don't see how this can be protected by free speech.
Thank God for dead soldiers?
Thank God for breast cancer?
Thank God for AIDS?
Give me a break! The very least the court could do is require Westboro their "right" to free speech 5,000 yards away from the funeral site.
I think Westboro has gone over the line. They aren't trying to help people or "save" them. They are trying to incite anger and inflict pain. Shirley Phelps spews out obsenities and trash talk about every class of American there is.
Our soldiers recieve many special protections for their sacrifice - being buried with dignity, without your funeral becoming a circus should be one of them.
The problem with this is that it is not up to the court... - Kendra
[ In Reply To ..]to require anything. The court's job is to uphold the laws that are already in place. As I said, I think that there should be a law against protesting at any funeral (soldier or otherwise--and I am a military spouse), but since there is not, they have not done anything illegal. Have they done something immoral or unethical, I absolutely think that they have and I am disgusted by it, but until they break an actual law, they should not be punished by the legal system. I absolutely think that military funerals should be protected by law, but until they are, I also believe that we need to uphold the rights that our military men fight so bravely to defend, even if we don't agree with the people practicing them.
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