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I don't understand why people are so against...sm

Posted: Jul 26, 2017

a Medicare type universal healthcare system. Someone on the news this morning said when people hit 65 they never say "darn, I have to go on Medicare now". Rather, they say "hooray!" I have Medicare now after years of struggling, and I LOVE it!

;

Other than the unconstitutionality of it, people don't - want government run health care.

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That is what you are going to be getting. When a govt program depends on the work of other to pay for it, it is just another social program. Socialized medicine. Trillions more debt. Long waiting lines.

The people administering it in D.C. are bureaucrats, so more people on the govt payroll.

The non-market components of our health care system drive costs up. We do NOT have free market health care today for the most part.

And to point out that government is not your keeper from birth to death is too harsh. That each person has his or her responsibility to take care of themselves is considered too unkind.

And thus the mess we are in. Nation on the way to bankruptcy but we want to be taken care of and it is ok to be slaves of government.

Our nation was founded on the fundamental principal of Liberty
Not dependence.

We love free lunches and can do whatever we desire to do. That is America today.

Government"program" - What about government

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Program of depending on me to pay to make a nice cushy program for large business so I can't afford to go to the doctor. Way before Obama so let's not pretend this just started happening. I want THAT part of my tax money and the money I pay for insurance premiums right now to go for something that represents my needs and for others to be allowed to do the same if they choose. Who is forced to accept Medicaid? We ARE forced to pay with taxes for huge companies right now and have been for a while. At least if I am paying for insurance I should finally see some benefit from doing so. Insurance companies routinely did anything they chose when someone finally made a claim. KEEP the part that has gotten them to at least pay the darn claim. Medical bills forced me to bankruptcy while I also paid for insurance, yet I continue to pay for the wealthy and pay insurance premiums on top of that. This is becoming like a monarchy.

Once you recognize the source and the tone of the - poster, you know where the post is

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headed. I think all these anti-socialized medicine posts are spot on, thought out and not based on emotion.

Emotions - Happen to people

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Who have suffered loss. I don't talk about these things but the memory of bankruptcy while barely feeding my child and working, paying taxes, following the program and paying for insurance is relevant to the healthcare discussion today. Sorry other people's painful memories interfere with your agenda. I have read well thought out arguments against the one you choose to believe. The actual living through it helped me choose. Emotions and all.

Of course, but you don't make decisions based - on emotions. By saying

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"sorry other people's painful memories interfere with your agenda" you have evoked emotion now so a conversation based on well thought out facts is not possible.

The rest of us have had to go through bad times too? Once one loses the ability to look at things objectively the argument is skewed.

I still try to look at the future because, like it or not, somebody will pay.

I was referring to the"tone" and "source" in the comment - which sounds like an attempt

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to discount experiences of people who have lived through the train of deregulation and transfer of our earnings that keeps circling around. We make decisions based on wisdom gained through life experience in addition to information published by a relative few. Some information is meant to benefit only specific people. Life experience helps in discernment. Saying emotion has no place in decision making is like saying memory has no place in determining our position today. Recounting my experience the last time that train came around may have sounded emotional yet the lesson learned through that experience is valuable information for me and many people in my life in making decisions today. Recalling of the experience was of course emotional for me but not directed towards any person hoping to make them sound foolish, yet the poster who replied was obviously trying to do exactly that. That is when emotion was injected for today's discussion.

Wisdom is not emotion. Emotions are feelings. - nm

[ In Reply To ..]
nm

Siri? - Is that you???

[ In Reply To ..]

wisdom
wis·dom
ˈwizdəm
noun
the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment; the quality of being wise.
synonyms: sagacity, intelligence, sense, common sense, shrewdness, astuteness, smartness, judiciousness, judgment, prudence, circumspection; More
the soundness of an action or decision with regard to the application of experience, knowledge, and good judgment.

Hope I don't live long enough to see the - explosion of these programs, but

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it will happen, you can take that to the bank. They are all going to go bankrupt.

In my lifetime, I've watched one publication after another - slide into leftism. First, it was

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US News and World Report, which was the right-leaning weekly when I was in college. Then the Economist Magazine began to forsake its libertarian roots and endorsed Clinton for president and became shills for socialized medicine.

They milk the same old cow of class warfare whenever they try to push a new social program.

Maybe they finally realize how corrupt the - right has become.

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Media should be about printing the truth, not pushing a fascist agenda.

There's that word fascist again. I'm sitting here - rolling my eyes at how dumbed

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down people have become.

I've been hearing this about Republicans all my life. Blah blah blah.

I've also heard how stupid Republicans are and what Einsteins Democrats are.

same old, same old

Maybe you should start listening - Nm

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!!!

The New Deal has protected prosperity your entire - life. "These programs!"

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How would you be feeling now if you didn't know, no matter what happens to the rest of your assets, Social Security and Medicare will be there for you?

You SHOULD ask yourself that. Because the people working to destroy the ACA also fully intend to use the power you gave them to destroy ALL "these programs," including Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Unemployment Insurance, SNAP, and all the rest. Some of the most powerful, like the Koch alliance, want to roll us back to the late 1800s and take out such things as federal funding for public schools.

So, if you get your way, you may well spend your later years living on whatever selling everything you have brings in until you're destitute. Don't imagine for a moment that the new "new deal" the billionaires pulling the Republican Party's strings plan would actually repay you for your decades of paying into "these programs." Most of that will go in their pockets.

It's happening just like that - Maybe I'm just old

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but there have been a lot of warnings about big business buying our government. That is why everything that can be taken to benefit the most wealthy will continue to be taken. Trump is just the strange looking poster boy of the moment. Calling the SSI we've paid into from every paycheck for decades a handout and taking it away is the natural progression of subsidizing the groups that buy favor from our elected officials. Legalized robbery. People WILL be selling everything they have and wondering how they could have fallen for it.

All these programs were designed to keep - Dems in office for life.None of

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them are sustainable.

On the other hand, what would happen if I chose to keep - that money instead of the feds taking

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it? Galveston, Texas opted out of the Social Security program in 1981 before Congress changed the law (and a few other countries, I can't remember).

What if I was able to keep the Medicare taxes taken out of my check and invested that myself?

What does Koch have to do with any of this? Your politics is getting the best of you.

BTW, Federal funding for public schools is not in the constitution but then again neither are "these social programs."

How convenient that you left out all of these programs are broke.

FDR and the New Deal was a massive delegation of legislative - authority that breached separation of powers.

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In his inaugural speech, Roosevelt actually threatened Congress with a dictatorship if all else failed in the “war against the emergency.”

The great depression’s most serious and long-lasting consequence was not the collapse of prices and employment, but the displacement of the traditional reliance on individual responsibility with government guarantees of security. Beginning with Social Security, these guarantees have grown into the all-encompassing welfare state.

This has changed the character of the American people, and it has changed the character of their government

This is absolute nonsense. My mother is 81 and as retired - 4 times. She still works because there is no

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word for retirement in Hebrew. By work I mean part time selling jewelry and the rest volunteering.

Read "The High Price of Socialized Medicine" - by James Brook. It's written by

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a medical doctor whose customers are his patients - not their insurance company or the government bureaucrats.

Another good one is "The Dangers of Socialized Medicine" by Jacob Hornberger

Emotion used in a debate is designed to discourage - opposition via sympathy.

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Because people remember how something made them feel more than what was said.

What debate - Have you decided for me

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that the only valid reason for posting on this board should meet requirements for a debate? We may post to answer a question, support someone, commiserate about shared disgust at what is happening in our country or to our jobs. In a debate, the parties agree that they are participating in the debate. I've seen a few good ones here too. Debate is debate, baiting is not honorable.

Actually, I'm very sorry that our friends will not have - the Medicare age dropped to 55,

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as the Democrats plan. They'll have to somehow get through the next years and are really scared because they both have preexisting conditions.

My husband's been on Medicare, plus additional Part B coverage, for over a decade. Part B's not cheap, but cheap for what we get. We've never paid a penny out of pocket.

Plus, we really like that, between the two, only about 7% of costs go to administration; the rest all goes to patient care. Best deal in town.

(Except for the VA of course, that pays @97% to patient care, @3% admin (!!!!) but most of us don't qualify.)

Even the ACA, which works with free-market insurers, requires only 80% go to patient care. And, of course, traditional free-market insurance of course has no legal limit on how little those corporations can (and do) divert away from patient care to profits.

I think a lower Medicare age would help more - of us "seniors" get employment.

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I'm sure that employers are pressured by their employee insurance companies not to hire older people because it's "more expensive". Maybe they're even charged more for their older employees... who knows?

I think one way to ease into Medicare for all might be to drop the eligibility age by 5 years every couple years until everyone is on it. That way they could iron out any kinks before it involved the entire population.

Too many people today except the govt to be their - child's daddy and the govt is god.

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This is why we have a nanny state.

Here’s an idea. Why don’t we just take children from their homes at birth and institutionalize them. They can have a place to sleep, exercise equipment, and three squares per day. It will prepare them for their future that is coming.

As I heard a pastor say once, welfare/government gifts has removed all moral components from assistance.

Are you under the illusion that Medicare is free? It is not. - Everyone pays the same. nm

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.

No kidding? I see the taxes taken out on my paycheck - every time I get paid.

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xx

Once you are eligible for Medicare, you will pay on average...sm - oldtimer

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$275 per month for part B, a supplement, and a drug policy. Not cheap but absolutely everything covered except a deductible of $188/yr.

On the consumer end that's great. But on the financial end, - not so great. Taxpayers are paying for that

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My children will have to pay an 80% tax rate to pay for all the retiring baby boomers.

How much does a CABG cost? How much does a hip replacement cost? I've seen the billing that comes after the procedure/doctor's visit. My mom just had 2 cataract surgeries. All of it was absolutely covered including the followup visits.

Now multiply that by 360 million, and you get into the trillions.

No they won't, unless they become part of - the uber-wealthy. And even then,

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if the right wing stays in power (ugh... God forbid!), then the uber-wealthy certainly won't be paying any 80% taxes.

I do. I've seen what they have in Scandinavia, - and I WANT it.

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They don't have a constitution like ours. Change it - and make it a right if you want it.

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xx

Lack of choice, dependence on government, - This reads like it was lifted

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wholesale from The Daily Worker.

I don't even know if we still have states' rights anymore, - but we sure have a centralized

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government.

Freedom and limited government are no longer central American values. I guess we've become a different flavor of Liberalism. This country is so over. Look at the RINOs - they are just ambiguous liberals.

Our federal government started out with just a few basic tasks at hand: maintain an army, levy tariffs, regulate commerce between states (real commerce, not the insane leaps of interpretation it uses for virtually everything nowadays), control our borders, etc.

It has since become a metastasized cancer that permeates our entire existence.

The debate at the Constitutional Convention was about how to provide for legitimate, collective national needs and protect individual liberties and states' rights at the same time. This debate is as old as our nation (the Hamilton vs. Jefferson view of the federal government). The solution they came up with has served us pretty well for over 200 years.

The real problem is central government getting into things it should never be involved with, like wealth re-distribution. Constitutional government basically means the federal government should not do much and "the states should make their own decisions.

I've actually heard a couple politicians says they are not a "fan of states' rights" WOW.

People who have read the Constitution understand this. The military? Yeah, that's a federal matter. Social welfare? Not a federal matter.

ONE factor that can at least ameliorate the problem, and that is term limits. To become corrupt requires TIME in a specific office. If one limits that TIME, the problem will be reduced (it cannot be eliminated). Remember, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I'd rather depend on the gov't. for insurance - than greedy insurance companies.

[ In Reply To ..]

nm

Not me, I'll take private sector any day. At least if you don't - like it you can change companies.

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Not so with govt run anything.

Taxpayers spend more than a trillion dollars every year on - Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security

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disability insurance so that everyone's health is taken care of, from cradle to grave. Unfortunately, probably at least half of that is fraud.

This whole “ affordable healthcare crisis” is a red herring. The problem is the cost of actual healthcare delivery.

With socialized medicine the cost of an MRI would be say $1400. In a free market, consumers could shop for an MRI and find one for $400. Govt run anything doesn't do this. They don't have to because they are using tax money to pay for it, so there's no incentive.

If people don't like insurance monopolies now, just want until the govt is the only place to go. Look at the cost of college.

Mandating anything makes the price go up because you have increased demand.

I'd rather my tax dollars go to Medicare than - to the U.S. War-Machine.

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.

Be careful what you wish for, it might come true. - nm

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x

Two Words: Veterans Administration - Look at what has happened there.

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I want the government in my life as little as possible.

Challenge: Find even 5 vets who would be willing - to lose the VA. The REASON

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you are being lied to about it is because wannabe billionaire kleptocrats are trying to destroy it.

There's gold in vet care, and they want it.

Are you forgetting about the Arizona VA? - sm

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Of course the vets want the VA. It's all they have. But it's inferior care and always has been. I'm all for vouchers so they can see the physician(s) of their chosing. The veterans deserve the best! Remember, all gave some; some gave all.

Not a bit. Challenge: Find 5 AZ vets who would be - willing to lose the VA and be

[ In Reply To ..]
thrown into the free market the rest of us are struggling with. You can post in an Arizona forum for that.

Most of the worst VA problems are out west for some reason, but the reports of poor care and avoidable deaths are greatly exaggerated.

They are lies to get YOU to support destroying the VA. Vets won't do it, but there are too few of them compared to you for them to be able to save it from destruction. That's your job.

And remember, these lies only work on those who want to be lied to. The truth is far too readily available, often no farther than the neighbor next door.

The main problem with the VA is that it's linked - to our top-heavy, wasteful military.

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This is not really universal healthcare. Everybody has - access to healthcare. It's about who will pay

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for it. If the politicians want to make healthcare a right, then change the constitution.

I'm not even going to make the small gvt argument because we haven't had small gvt for a long, long time.

Bingo. I hear the word postmoderism now as well as - sustainable. Much of this is just

[ In Reply To ..]
repackaging of old ideas from socialism and communism. Universal health care just means socialized medicine, nothing new about that.

College students love to talk about free speech but not about personal responsibility that goes along with it.

Well, that's nice. But some of us look beyond our own selves - and wonder what kind of country

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we are leaving our children and how they are going to pay for the debt.

The govt now has total control from cradle to grave. Social Security unfunded liabilities now climb to 13 trillion.

I'm going to use the word sustainability here.

Medicare and Medicaid though are time bombs and the boomers didn’t even remotely close to pay in the cost of their medicare.”

Medicare cannot possibly break even because the existence of government interference drives medical costs up many times what they would normally be. I am 73 and have never yet used my Medicare benefits for anything but most people my age would be better off had Medicare never existed, the costs would be so much lower that they could pay out of pocket and come out better.

Gvt drives the costs up in any gvt program (military, medicare, medicaid, etc) but that also drives up the cost in non-gvt programs too.

How can crooked politicians and their crooked supporters talk about a basic income for everybody when SS and Medicare are running out of money?

I don't trust the government. It does things for power, both - parties.

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x

In essence, politicians can't be trusted if there is - money anywhere about and that,

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from the questionable morality and the unconstitutionality of the system, is the problem.

Not only is Medicare good, but you get to - choose your Part-B insurer, too.

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And each year you can change if you're not happy with them. I'm with Kaiser right now. It's a bit odd, but it's pretty good. Last year with BC/BS, I was in the John Muir healthcare system, which I consider to be the Cadillac of healthcare. Unfortunately BC/BS dropped my county, so I lost John Muir. :( But the upside is my Kaiser facility is just 2 exits down the highway from me, and the copays are very reasonable. Win-win!

I don't like insurance companies either - Here's why sm

[ In Reply To ..]
It divorces people from their healthcare decision making.

Let's say you have chronic back pain. What's the cause? If you have insurance (whether from a private company or the government) you may not care about the cause. Maybe all you care about is relief. Maybe all your doctor cares about is getting paid, repeatedly, to handle your pain.

That leads to all kinds of potential issues, such as the opioid crisis, unnecessary surgery, unnecessary drugs. (Now you need anti-constipation meds to combat your pain meds.)

But what's the actual cause of your back pain? Maybe one of your legs 1/4" shorter than the other one and you could fix all your back problems with a $10 shoe insert.

On the other side of the argument, maybe you don't want what the government prescribes.

I once knew a lady who would go to the ER every time she had a bad period. Her insurance always paid for it. Then she lost her job and ended up on Medicare. She tried the same thing again. Medicare looked at her case and essentially said, "You have 3 kids, you're in your late 30s. It's cheaper for us to pay for a hysterectomy than it is to pay for all of these ER visits over the next 15 years." That scared her and she stopped going to the ER for that.

There has to be a balance somewhere, but I've never seen the government demonstrate that they're able to find it.

I'm not claiming I have a bulletproof solution. But I will say medical care seemed a lot more sane before health insurance was considered a right. Does anyone remember when doctors needed to save for vacations like everyone else? How about when doctors didn't need office staff and 40% of their income was from house calls?

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So I am going to pick up my son and his friend from football camp and he says to wait that there is a lady that wants to talk to me. So along comes this lady who just reeks of money asking me if it was okay for her to take my son's friend with her and her grandson (my son is NOT invited) to the country club swimming and could I call his mother. I told her I did not have my phone, but the friend could call his mom and ask. She then proceeds to ask me to wait ...

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My husband had a job interview on Friday. The HR lady said she would call him on Monday to set up his final interview. It is wednesday... has she called, no! She gave my hubby her card so he emailed her Monday night to thank her for the interview on Friday and to let her know he would like to schedule the final interview, but nothing... no email, no phone call, nothing! Its just so frustrating because he has been out of work for so long, and this would be a good job and everyth ...