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I do not understand the democratic way of thinking

Posted: Oct 9, 2012

I have had numerous "debates" with some of my friends and family on the democratic way of thinking. They say republicans help the "rich get richer" and republicans are "greedy," etc.

What I don't understand is how democrats cannot understand the simple concept that the rich will STAY rich no matter how many taxes they have to pay in. The "rich" are the ones who create the jobs. The oil companies (I will admit their profits are excessive), but they provide MANY jobs, corporate companies (such as Walmart) create MANY jobs, Donald Trump creates MANY jobs. They have their luxurious life and no matter how hard you want them to share their money by paying in more taxes, they are going to stay rich, and if that means laying people off, not hiring as many people, or plain and simply trickling the price down to the consumer. They are NOT going to just pay more taxes and call it a day. They will have their bank accounts stay the same regardless of the amount of taxes they pay. I don't understand why this is such a hard concept to get. Anyone of you who read this could lose their job because the "rich" have to pay more taxes OR everyone of you will end up paying more out of your own pocket to make up the difference they will take out of their pocket to pay more taxes.

Also, how is it greed for people who earned their money to want to keep it, but it's not greed to want to take it from them and give it to other people? I understand wanting to help the less fortunate, but there are already government programs in place to help those people. By the rich paying in more, that it isn't going to help the less fortunate. It is only going to pay for more of Obama's failed investments, which as the president of the United States, investments are not supposed to be his business.

We are now three years into Obama's presidency and food, gas, and healthcare are at all time highs. This is no longer Bush's problem as so many democrats still like to point blame. He may have started the problem, but Obama should have fixed it right from the get go if that was his plan, not double the problem, which has happened. We all love living in the United States of America, the land of the free and the home of the brave. We were known as the richest country in the world and the U.S. credit score has been downgraded twice on Obama's watch. That is scary!!! That means we are looking weaker and weaker and weaker to other countries!! Obama hasn't fixed healthcare, besides to take away our jobs, Obama hasn't created jobs, as the unemployment rate is still sky high, Obama hasn't done anything about the price of fuel which is KILLING us!! The price of fuel affects the price of everything else. It costs money to ship the food to the store so the store pays more in turn rising the price on us. When Bush was going out of office, everyone said it's his fault that the gas prices are so high, yet they are higher now than way back then.

I'm literally scared for what is to come. My kids are going to be paying for this debt for the rest of our lives and the democrats want to keep adding to it by electing Obama. I just do not get it. Take away my deductions...I don't care. I would rather pay the taxes now than for my kids to be responsible forever. I also find it funny how democrats talk about Romney's tax plan and how he is going to do away with deductions and then people have to pay more taxes, yet they want all the "rich" to pay the taxes and not themselves. That's what I call greedy.

;

If all the billionaires in this country - had ALL of their money

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confiscated (taxed) by the govt., it would not be enough to get us out of this economic hole the president has put us in.

Let's give credit where credit is due. - sm

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"He may have started the problem, but Obama should have fixed it right from the get go if that was his plan, not double the problem, which has happened."

Obstructionists in Congress who are dead-set on blocking progress, with the stated end of making Obama a one-term president. If you want to point fingers, point them at the right targets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-A09a_gHJc (Yeah, I know, context, but the proof is in the voting.)

Trickle-down economics has never nor will it ever work. No amount of wishing and hoping will make it so.

Great post - It's so easy to understand this - unless you're a liberal - The Sarge

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No message because I'm too tired to write anything. Will commend further on it tomorrow. Just thought your assessment is 100% right on.

The feds have been the biggest job creators for half century - Fanatical Hypocrite

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I just want to say ahead of time that you wrote a very well worded post and made some really great points. It's a very thought provoking subject. However, I must offer a rebuttal on behalf of all the rich hating, job killers:)

Yes, individuals create companies. Companies create jobs. So, via the transitive properties therein, people create jobs. But most individuals, as a practice, don't create more than a handful of jobs. The vast majority of jobs in America have always been created by the collectivist activities of either corporations or the government. "Job creators" is a phrase concocted to put a smiling face and a benevolent hand to what is a faceless, amoral, apolitical entity. Besides the fact that it is corporations that create jobs, I also dislike the term because it implies that it is a form of charity. Donald Trump found a little extra job stuck to his shoe, so he scraped it off and gave it to the poor. The rich don't give you a job. They need you do work which they can't. Individual accomplishment is important, yet ultimately what we can do on our own is nothing compared to what we can do together.

You said "Also, how is it greed for people who earned their money to want to keep it, but it's not greed to want to take it from them and give it to other people?" Technically, that isn't greed. Say you were rich and I robbed you blind and gave it to the poor. That's stealing. You can decry it as financial vigilantism and criminal, yet it isn't greed. Avarice is taking and keeping for yourself what you don't need or can't use.

Now, I agree that Obama has gone half-@$$ed with his recovery plan, but fixing the economy "from the get go" is an odd request. Obama, Bush, Romney, McCain, no human being has an economy wand that they can wave and fix all our woes. Obama could be doing a better job, no doubt about that, but expediency in this, no matter how much we may all want it because we're hurting, simply isn't possible.

Now, your point about taxation failing to effect the rich is a very true. Under either Obama or Romney, they will continue to weasel their way out. As long as we allow offshoring your money, there is a massive loophole in the system. It's difficult to come up with a legitimate or legal way to deal with the problems we face in policing the unpoliceable rich. If they are above the law, how can we who are within the law stop them from trampling on our rights.

My main disagreement, however, is in regards to giving up and giving the rich oodles more of our money to waste in the hopes that it will trickle down. It does not, never has and never will work this way in my opinion. No matter how much money you throw down that pit, you won't see a dime come back. The problem here is that you are thinking about this as a normal, logical human being. If you were rich and you had a company and you had just enough money to keep it afloat, you wouldn't make more jobs. But if you had more money than you needed, you would create new jobs, right? The problem is that's poor people thinking. Rich people think "I have more money, I should keep it. Oh, look, now I have even more money, I should keep that too." They won't make jobs because their effective tax rate goes down a few percents. At best, they will open a new factory in another country where they can pay people pennies on the dollar. It is a fundamental misunderstanding of the financial system because you expect logical behavior and you will be grossly disappointed.

As to why the Dems expect the rich to pay more in taxes is because, obviously, they have more money than anyone. Let's create an imaginary example. Let's say that to feed and support oneself it takes $100 a day and the average person makes $150. You can only safely take 50 at the most before you starve and kill that person. If you make $100,000 a day, you can safely take 90,000 and still have all that change left over to make payments on your private submarine or whatever that person chose to waste their money on. So logically, if a country needs to increase revenue, they should look to the rich first. It won't effect job creating, because 9 times out of 10 that is done off of the corporate account rather than a person's private account. Also, America's effective tax rate is quite lenient in the world.

So, in closing, I will point out that Donald Trump, whom you mentioned as a job creator (toupee wrangler, full body spray painter, whoever puts the letters T-R-U-M-P on all those buildings, etc.), has repeatedly said that the difference between the rich and poor in this country is that the rich had the courage to see what they wanted and take it. So let's follow the advice of the rich and take what we want with no regard to the health, safety or well-being of other people or even our own futures. There's gold in that Wall Street and I means to take it. All of it!

OP: Care to respond to this rebuttal to - your post? NM

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x

brilliant rebuttal! - bravo!

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What strikes me is that you seem to buy into Ayn Rand's - admiration for uber-people and that they deserve

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everything for their greatness. The corollary, though, is that everyone else isn't and doesn't. She called us insects. Ryan has been a long-time admirer of hers, by the way, and Romney a classic version of the sort of person who deserves to inherit the earth. You're worth so little, and they're worth so much.

She thought they should grind us under their feet. The version of a lot of ordinary people is instead, "Be great and in the process take care of me, Daddy." But they won't. And they don't. They never have. That, alone, should clue you in that some major rethinking is in order.

Go read just a little on the psychology of groups, leadership, greed. A simple study of what happens when you designate a few people in an ordinary group the bosses and hand them a cake cutter explains our billionaire class.

BTW, imagine this. Take away all the boss workers. What happens? New ones stand up. Take away all the workers. What happens? Nothing happens--ever.

Those people enterprising enough to start an enterprise need to be rewarded for their efforts to encourage more of the same. That's basic Adam Smith capitalist theory.

But why do you buy into the notion that they are so incredibly more valuable that they should cut themselves whatever they want and that all the other people who create our wealth are worth so little that we should be grateful for their leavings? That's not the way it's supposed to be. It's a corruption and degradation of capitalism and free enterprise--what happens when the system isn't working in balance.

Wow.... - SK1

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Edited to delete message. To the person I was responding to, thank you for making your message more respectful.

A bit harsh. -

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If I were ever of the mindset that I might possibly someday return to the Democratic party, this post alone would knock that nonsense right out of my head. Attitude uncalled for.

Excessive humility just irritates the heck out of me. - Especially when it institutionalizes greed.

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The New Deal and the Fair Deal of the last century made us all prosperous FROM THE WEALTH WE ALL CREATED, but this kind of thinking has just thrown all those gains away.

BTW, President Truman, based on projections of tremendous growth in national wealth (which, in fact, came true) and what New Deal people made then under the New Deal, thought we would be making literally twice what we actually did through the second half of the century. Guess where YOUR other $20-40K per year for those decades went?

Make no mistake, this Democrat is the kind that'd grab that stupid cake cutter out of their hands since they've proven they can't be trusted with it. I am not humble at all, and they have proven they are not to be trusted with their power.

So true.... - SK1

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I think the success lies somewhere in the middle and that the parties have become so polarized that they've both moved to extreme ends.

I don't begrudge the wealthy their riches, but do think that they should be paying more taxes, whether by raising the percentage they pay or closing the obscene loopholes they have, I don't know. That said, everything you said is true, they do employ millions of people and they also benefit the country with their spending. While people like calling them out on their wealth, they also tend to forget how philanthropic most of the wealthy are and how much they contribute.

As a country, we need to start living within our means. Period. We need somebody who has the guts to say, "This is going to suck, but we need to do it" and make the hard cuts. Even if it means cutting Big Bird. We've become a country of "take care of the problem, but don't affect me in the process."

We need to revamp our tax system, get rid of the taxes that are strangling our businesses, cut the waste in our government (which would probably mean cleaning House, literally), look at our social services and get rid of the fraud and waste there, quit giving money to countries that would like to annihilate us and myriad other things.

I had hoped that Obama would be the man who would do that for us and was really optimistic when he was elected. Four years later, though, this is where we are. He's not at all the man I thought was elected.

I've watched and listened to both the candidates carefully. I'm only hearing the same old, same old from Obama, and we see where that's gotten us. Now he wants "just stick with me a little bit longer." Why? As they say, the definition of insanity is making the same mistakes over and over and expecting different results.

I don't know that Romney is the man who will "save" our country, but he's been successful in what he's done and that's a step in the right direction. And I like that Ryan is a numbers man. We need a numbers man in the White House right now.

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