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Bush Cancels Visit To Switzerland Due To Threat Of Torture Prosecution

Posted: Feb 6, 2011

Looks like he may have to limit his travels within the good old U.S.A.!!!!

GENEVA, Feb 5 (Reuters) - Former U.S. President George W. Bush has cancelled a visit to Switzerland, where he was to address a Jewish charity gala, due to the risk of legal action against him for alleged torture, rights groups said on Saturday. Bush was to be the keynote speaker at Keren Hayesod's annual dinner on Feb. 12 in Geneva. But pressure has been building on the Swiss government to arrest him and open a criminal investigation if he enters the Alpine country.

Criminal complaints against Bush alleging torture have been lodged in Geneva, court officials say.

Human rights groups said they had intended to submit a 2,500-page case against Bush in the Swiss city on Monday for alleged mistreatment of suspected militants at Guantanamo Bay, the U.S. naval base in Cuba where captives from Afghanistan, Iraq and other fronts in the so-called War on Terror were interned.

Leftist groups had also called for a protest on the day of his visit next Saturday, leading Keren Hayesod's organisers to announce that they were cancelling Bush's participation on security grounds -- not because of the criminal complaints.

But groups including the New York-based Human Rights Watch and International Federation of Human Rights (FIDH) said the cancellation was linked to growing moves to hold Bush accountable for torture, including waterboarding. He has admitted in his memoirs and television interviews to ordering use of the interrogation technique that simulates drowning.

"He's avoiding the handcuffs," Reed Brody, counsel for Human Rights Watch, told Reuters.

The action in Switzerland showed Bush had reason to fear legal complaints against him if he travelled to countries that have ratified an international treaty banning torture, he said.

Brody is an American-trained lawyer specialised in pursuing war crimes worldwide, especially those allegedly ordered by former leaders, including Chile's late dictator Augusto Pinochet and Chad's ousted president Hissene Habre. Habre has been charged by Belgium with crimes against humanity and torture, and is currently exiled in Senegal.

PROSECUTE OR EXTRADITE

"President Bush has admitted he ordered waterboarding which everyone considers to be a form of torture under international law. Under the Convention against Torture, authorities would have been obliged to open an investigation and either prosecute or extradite George Bush," Brody said.

Swiss judicial officials have said that Bush would still enjoy a certain diplomatic immunity as a former head of state.

Dominique Baettig, a member of the Swiss parliament from the right-wing People's Party, wrote to the Swiss federal government last week calling for the arrest of Bush for alleged war crimes if he came to the neutral country.

Bush, in his "Decision Points" memoirs on his 2001-2009 presidency, strongly defends the use of waterboarding as key to preventing a repeat of the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States.

Most human rights experts consider the practice a form of torture, banned by the Convention on Torture, an international pact prohibiting torture and other cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment or punishment.

Switzerland and the United States are among 147 countries to have ratified the 1987 treaty.

"Whatever Bush or his hosts say, we have no doubt he cancelled his trip to avoid our case. The message from civil society is clear - If you're a torturer, be careful in your travel plans. It's a slow process for accountability, but we keep going," the Paris-based FIDH and New York-based Center for Constitutional Rights said in a joint statement on Saturday.

Sami El Hadjj, a former Al Jazeera journalist and former detainee at Guantanamo, had been due to speak at their news conference in Geneva on Monday, where they will release the 2,500-page complaint.

"I'm surprised he (Bush) would even consider visiting a country that has ratified the torture convention and which takes its responsibilities seriously," said Brody.

"I think George Bush's world is a very small place at the moment," he said. "He may enjoy some kind of impunity in the United States, but other countries will not treat him so indulgently." (Editing by Mark Heinrich)

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wow - icedT

[ In Reply To ..]
Some (most) of those comments made by those Huffington Post-ers (through the link) are pretty hateful. Many of them were even deleted by the moderator. This is quite an angry group of people, huh?

OK, I'm not a big fan of George W. and I certainly don't agree with all that he did, but I would never EVER wish a current or past United States President to be dead - ever. We don't hang our presidents in the town square in our society. We vote.

I truly believe these people actually want their former president to suffer a very slow and painful death. Scary group of people. And they think the Tea Party are hateful and violent? Sheesh!

Oh, and for the record, if some terrorist had my family in a building with a bomb and I had one of the terrorists who could tell me something to save them, I surely would not serve him a cup of tea and a crumpet. If he didn't tell me what I needed to know to save my family, I'd be the first one to go all "Jack Bauer" on him. I would have no problem grabbing the bucket of water for the waterboarding.

wow - sm

[ In Reply To ..]
Well, I certainly do not wish a slow death on the man, and certainly understand wanting to torture the truth out of terrorists; however, it seems to me that our president should not be authorizing any form of torture, since we are always promoting how wrong torture is. Frankly, the world pretty much hates us because of G.W.B. He authorized torture, and also invaded Iraq for no reason other than his own personal reasons. Our war was in Afghanistan with Osama Bin Laden, not Iraq. I'm truly not saying that Saddam Hussein was a good man or did not deserve what he got, but who are we to go around invadaing countries just because. That country was no different than it had been for many years and it was up to the people to get their own country straightened out. We went in there under false pretenses and much of the world hates us because of that.

Now, if a country came in and invaded us trying to get to G.W. due to things he has done, everyone would be crying how wrong they would be. He really was the king bully of the world, whether you like me saying that or not, and if another country wants to punish him for things he has done if he goes there, so be it.

The world does not hate us because of GW - Zville MT

[ In Reply To ..]
He didn't make anything better, that's for sure, but the hate has been going on for decades - WWI, WWII, Korea, Cuban missile crisis, Vietnam - they hate us because we're always sticking our noses in where they really don't belong, among other reasons. I'm not an isolationist, but I really think we ought to tend to our own country and our own problems first.

Do you really believe extraordinary rendition isn't still going on? The only difference is our country isn't physically doing the torture - does that really make it okay?

I totally agree. - sm

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These countries don't want us telling them how to run their countries....although they seem to have no trouble taking the money we give some of them in foriegn aid...but whatever.

I say we take care of ourselves. Bring our troops home. Keep funding our own homeland security, secure or borders and take care of ourselves.

Rendition is still going on...anyone who thinks Obama has stopped this is seriously deluded. Also...Obama continues to approve drone attacks and considering that has killed the innocent as well as terrorists....I'm pretty sure that has ticked a lot of people off.

So people really need to get off this whole George Bush is to blame for everything kick. I don't see where Obama has changed a lot of what Bush did in regards to the 2 wars.

Wow, yourself. - sm

[ In Reply To ..]
Cant find that alleged hate speech you are trying to conjure up. Please be more specific, especially about the posts that say they want the shrub hanged in the town square or dead, as you clearly are trying to imply.

I would not exactly describe the posts as angry, especially in view of the nonstop vitriol that can be found on ringht wing fringe blogs at any given time, day or night, directed at Obama and his supporters. In fact, I detect a certain degree of passive aggression embedded in your own post, not worthy of further comment. What I see is a passionate drive and desire to bear witness to justice served up against war criminals, especially ones who have openly confessed to war crimes on national television in the midst of one of a preditable duh moment. I also see folks who do not shy away from calling out the extreme hypocrisy of preaching human rights on the one hand while dishing out blatent violations as such with the other.

Voting is not all we do here. We claim to be a nation of laws, yet selective prosecution as specifically pointed out in the comments section would be a much more accurate description. You are entitled to your beliefs, but slow and painful death is a bit of an over-reach, dontcha think? They want charges to be brought and trial in a court of law....big difference in my book. Speaking of scarey groups, I will let the tea partys behaviors and actions speak for themselves rather than to take that bait from you.

Thankfully, vast numbers of our fellow citizens recognize that we do not predicate our foreign policy based on life on your Jack Bauer boob tube planet. I prefer to stand on the side with those who seek to balance anti-terrorism policies, procedures and tactics with long-established human rights protocols, guided by treaties we have signed onto and due process as promoted in our own Constitution. So go ahead and beat your chest and assert your alpha dog persona with regard to your willingness to engage in globally recognized torture methods. Just do not expect the more rational among us to fall in line and keep silent when the President of the United States brings shame down upon the rest of us, then slithers off into business as usual, all the while preaching to the choir about personal responsibility for ones actions.

Oh, and for the record, I would be willing to bet that you would be the first one to call foul against waterboarding practices against our own soldiers at the hands of our enemies when they hurl our hypocrisy right back in our faces.

Hats off to the Swiss.

LOL. I bet you would be absolutley surprised - at how many people have

[ In Reply To ..]
absolutely no problem with waterboarding if a situation like the above poster mentioned. So, an "enemy" took one of your children hostage, you would be against waterboarding someone who knew where to find your child. I know I would have absolutely no problem with it. If someone had information about the 911 terror attacks and refused information, I would have no problem with using waterboarding. If President Obama needs to waterboard an Al Qadea member to find Bin Laden, then have it. I'm pretty sure they have killed a few of our citizens and soldiers, so no, I wouldn't mind at all.

By the way, I'm pretty sure the above poster when mentioning the slow death was talking about the deleted comments by the moderaters of Huffington Post. I read an article about Dick Cheney a few months back, and it was the same thing. I could not believe what people would actually write about him.

I agree... - KAT

[ In Reply To ..]
These people who would get some sort of joyful glee out of see GW hang have some sort of major issues going on themselves. As much damage as O has done to this country, I still wish no harm would ever come to him. He has a family and he's a human being and I would never wish anything bad on him. As for the "torture," I'm sure waterboarding is not a fun event; however, these are people who would happily blow themselves to bits and take you and your children along with them. To hear someone complain because they are being tortured is ludicrous. If they could "waterboard" our whole country, they would do it happily. For those who think waterboarding is such a cruel event, why don't you cuddle up with one of them while they're loaded for bear? If you would be so lucky to survive the blast, you probably would be saying, "When's that water gonna get here?" ; )

Again, where are those posts calling for Ws head? - As for the rest of your comments,

[ In Reply To ..]
they are basically irrevelant within the context of human rights and letter of the law. Of course, I do realize there are those who prefer to keep this discussion alive by drawing those broad brushstrokes where "these people" are all guilty until proven innocent. I would not be among those who have such contemptuous disregard for our nations credibility. This is not about offering concessions to those folks who complain they are being tortured. This is about who we are or are not as a people, as a culture and as a nation. It is about upholding our own self-professed high standards of human dignity, both in how we see ourselves and how we treat others. The chest beating alpha dog rhetoric is a sign of weakness, not strength, and from whee I sit, it is downright ignorant and potentially dangerous.

W's head - qtmt

[ In Reply To ..]
You're kidding me right? There are entire web sites dedicated to Bush's death. A film was made also. I think it was called, "The Death of a President." A simple Google search brings up a lot of hate. Here's just one: http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=621

Personally, I think this is what is ignorant and potentially dangerous.

Let me know if you want more. The hate is documented all over the place.

Pardon me for trying to stay on topic. The original post - cited HuffPo article.

[ In Reply To ..]
Thus, I was discussing the topic at hand, which is NOT hateful liberals, but rather Ws war crimes and his trip to Switzerland cancellation. Now, can you please show me where on the HuffPo website comments section they are calling for his head? One poster actually tried to say it was in the DELETED posts, which actually would imply that HuffPo moderators are trying to keep CIVIL discourse going by not allowing hate speech and references to violence stand, in a post Tuson/Giffords world. Can you find them on that site, yes or no?

Did she not say that the moderator had been - having to delete them?

[ In Reply To ..]
I don't think she can direct you to deleted posts.

I would sure hope that a moderator would delete those types of things off of their website.

Sorry to be such a doubting Thomas. Conveniently - she was the ONLY one

[ In Reply To ..]
who saw all those horrible hateful violent liberal posts. I merely pointed that out. I will further point out that she was much more interested in casting aspersions on the posters in the comments section than discussing the issue of W having to cancel his trip to Geneva on account of being an untried war criminal, so forgive me if I remain a bit suspicious of her claims regarding violent liberal rhetoric, since, after all, there was no tangible evidence.

I also remain suspicious since it was the libs who brought the topic of violent political rhetoric (particularly that containing gun references) into the national dialog after Tucson/Giffords and it was the cons who instantly went into collective monolithic denial that references to guns and violence even existed in politicl rhetoric.

Anyway, I'll take that as a no, she cant find all those hateful posts calling for Ws head.

credibility? - see message

[ In Reply To ..]
Check out KAT asking me if I am a homosexual:

http://general.mtstars.com/262499.html

LOL ;) ;) - no1joe

[ In Reply To ..]
Yes... I caught that. Someone's off her rocker. I also caught that several people around here lately are just OBSESSED with "homosexuals" including GIB below, KAT here, and JRD above. I have a lot of gay friends, and just between you and me, these posters are more obsessed with "homosexuality" than all my gay friends COMBINED! It's hilarious. I'm still trying to piece together how someone can take a discussion regarding misconceptions about Muslims and somehow bring gay marriage into the picture?? Huh? (And I so hope that that just didn't open up the door for an explanation being offered).

The homosexual obsession combined with the inappropriate use of ;) and LOL out of nowhere like somekind of blogging nervous tic and the overwhelming need to have the last word and post a response to EVERYTHING is leading me to believe that there is definitely something in the water, and it smells fishy.

Thats a bet you would lose. - sm

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Maybe you think human rights policy is a popularity contest, but I dont. I see no reason to address your unsubstantiated subjective claim, other than to say I am perfectly aware of this red herring argument as set forth by GOP Rep. Lamar Smith in 2008 when he presumed to speak for 99 percent of the population he claimed would support the practice on a "known terrorist " when the info extracted could save American lives. This unscientific emotional appeal (much like your kidnapped child scenario) produces about as much of a valid conclusion as waterboarding has produced real confessions. I prefer to stick with more concrete data mined from real live polls. Seems that when he made those statements, CNN had just released a poll that found 68 percent of Americans believe waterboarding is torture and 58 percent believe the US should not be able to use the technique.

Polls, schmolls say you? How about US law? Mean anything to you? US vs Yukio Asano? He got 15 years of hard labor for torturing POWs in a variety of ways, including water torture consisting of pouring water up the nostrils of one prisoner, forcing water into the mouths and noses of two other prisoners, and forcing water into the nose of a fourth prisoner (link 1). The U.S. Department of State defined submersion of the head in water as torture in its examination of Tunisia's human rights record in 2005 (link 2). The 2006 US Department of Defense Army Field Manual explicitly prohibits the use of waterboarding by U.S. military personnel (link 3). The 1996 War Crimes Act criminalized breaches of the Geneva Convention, facilitating the prosecution of war criminals such as the North Vietnamese who tortured US soldiers in Vietnam, a bill which the the Defense Department fully supported (link 4). In Hamdan vs Rumsfeld, the US Supreme Court ruled that the Geneva Conventions applied to the War on Terror. Lo and behold! Hypocrisy reared it ugly head in 2006 when the Military Commissions Act sought to EXCLUDE or severely inhibit due process when the defendants were Americans.

See what I mean? Illegal under our own laws, but selectively enforced everywhere except as applied to Americans. This is the essence of hypocrisy, which I believe fuels more terrorism than it prevents. Oh, once again, for the record, I would most definitely not be interested in extracting false confessions in the case of my child's kidnapper. I prefer hard, irrefutable REAL evidence that holds up in a court of law. To each his own.

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~warcrime/Japan/Yokohama/Reviews/Yokohama_Review_Asano.htm

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61700.htm

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2008/02/waterboarding-not-authorized-under.php

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/27/AR2006072701908_pf.html

You would be right polls schmolls is exactly what - I would say as I am pretty

[ In Reply To ..]
sure there is a large portion of Americans that don't even know what waterboarding means. I love politics. Stay involved in things, but for instance, I asked my husband a little bit ago about what he thought about waterboarding. He didn't know off hand what I was even talking about or the fact that Bush had even used and who they had used it on. There are a lot of people who do not keep up at all with politics. We are in the 30-year-old range, and no one that we know even gets in to any of these types of things. They vote based on their financial issues and religious views, but otherwise, know very little about what is going on. They are not watching CNN or Fox News. They are watching Grey's Anatomy or some reality TV show.

That is why I really don't like polls like that. You have a lot of Americans who can't even tell you simple things like who the vice president is, speaker of the house etc. much less their opinions on George Bush using waterboarding on terrorists.

Its funny too. I asked my spouse if he thought it was torture, and he agreed that yes it probably was as there was being pain inflicted. I then asked him if he had a problem with the President okaying it for people he was trying to get information on from the 911 attacks, and of course, that did not bother him at all.

It looks as though they have now said that it cannot be used anymore, so why are people so bent out of shape about it?

None of that changes the fact that it an illegal - war crime W freely admits to. nm

[ In Reply To ..]
nm

He sure does. Even says he would do it again - if it saved lives.

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nm

Sorta like abortion activists who would murder more and more MDs for perfoming - a legal procedure...sm

[ In Reply To ..]
in the name of saving lives, huh?

Some info prior to Hamdan - Backwards Typist

[ In Reply To ..]
Yesterday, I looked at the Articles but this morning, I can't seem to find them again, but did find this info/reasoning.

At least since early 2002 and lasting until the Courtâ��s ruling in Hamdan, the Bush Administration had taken the position that the Geneva Conventions did not apply to members of Al Qaeda captured in the global â��war on terror.â�� Specifically, the Administration argued that the Conventions were applicable to international armed conflicts between High Contracting Parties and States that complied with Convention provisions, and therefore do not cover non-State actors such as Al Qaeda. The Administration further claimed that the conflict with Al Qaeda is international in scope, and Common Article 3 accordingly was inapplicable to the conflict because it only covers armed conflicts â��not of an international nature.â��

The issue in Hamdan primarily concerned military tribunals convened by presidential order to try detainees for violations of the law of war. The Court held that such tribunals did not comply with the Uniform Code of Military Justice or the law of war, including the Geneva Conventions. However, the Courtâ��s interpretation of Common Article 3 had broader implications for U.S. policy towards captured Al Qaeda suspects. The Court rejected the Administrationâ��s interpretation of Common Article 3 as not covering Al Qaeda members, concluding that the provision affords â��some minimal protection, falling short of full protection under the Conventions, to [any] individuals ... who are involved in a conflict in the territory of a signatory.â��

In the aftermath of the Courtâ��s ruling, the Department of Defense issued new treatment guidelines concerning military detainees (including Al Qaeda members) that required, at a minimum, application of the standards articulated by Common Article 3. Subsequently, fourteen high-level Al Qaeda operatives who had been held abroad by the CIA and subjected to aggressive interrogation techniques were transferred to Department of Defense (DoD) custody in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/intel/RL33662.pdf

http://www.pegc.us/archive/White_House/bush_memo_20020207_ed.pdf

That was awesome - no1joe

[ In Reply To ..]
Dontcha just love hypocrisy? Thank you for posting my thoughts exactly and to the point. I probably would have gone off on a tangent about how torture in any form is wrong and driven it off topic. Right on.

What do you think this is.....ancient Rome - JTBB

[ In Reply To ..]
where punishment is dealt (or not) according to one's station in life? Geez. He is simply a man (title or not) and should recieve the same punishment that any other man would recieve for his crimes.

What ever happened to... - KAT

[ In Reply To ..]
"innocent till proven guilty?" O can rob us all blind but I guess that would be overlooked While GW resorts to hurting a terrorist's feelings and it's "Oh God, let's hang the $%#@^." LOL

ROFL - JTBB

[ In Reply To ..]
Really? The man already admits to waterboarding (many times over)..and u think he's innocent? He knew he was committing a crime when he did it. He just assumed he would be above the law because of his position (and still does). Regardless of the circumstances, the law is the law. Or at least it was when we saw the Japanese brought to justice for this crime (WWII), as well as many of our own soldiers since that time.

I wonder, if I were to waterboard someone, would that be considered just "hurting their feelings?"

And I'm sure... - KAT

[ In Reply To ..]
these people don't give a second thought to anybody's feelings when they're blowing the @$^& out of our military and our citizens. These people could care less about our laws. At least these terrorist's are coming out of it alive. Why don't you give it a rest? You sound utterly insane... LOL

You are so naive... - JTBB

[ In Reply To ..]
Did you really think they would just stand there and take it when WE invaded their country? (Yet another illegal move by Bush concerning Iraq.) I wouldn't stand so high on that pedastal if I were you concerning who has killed more. If you think we haven't killed numerous innocent civilians and prisoners you are living in a dream.

Not so naive here... - KAT

[ In Reply To ..]
daughter served in Desert Storm. You have no idea what really goes on during time of war, as do any of us. To say you know/knew the facts just shows your arrogance and ignorance. I doubt if any of us know the real facts of any circumstance. No one's keeping a body count, except for you apparently. All life is precious and that goes for Bush's and Obama's. That doesn't change the fact that in times of war, all countries resort to illegal tactics even though they aren's supposed to. To think any different would be really "naive" of you.

Here's your count.... - JTBB

[ In Reply To ..]
http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/

It's not that I don't think illegal tactics are not used by all during war, its the hipocrasy of our system that's in question. We even punish our own soldiers for waterboarding, but not the one who commanded it.

Just because you hate someone doesn't mean its okay to break the law when dealing with them. WE (the US) agreed not to use waterboarding of our own free will, only to break that agreement and give comfort to the guilty.

Be honest... - KAT

[ In Reply To ..]
you question the hypocricy of the Bush administration but I doubt you do the present administration and why??? Possibly because you might have "hated" the Bush administration so you will look for every flaw you can. Every administration--past and present--has had their flaws. No one said anything about "hating" someone gives the okay to break the law but, when you are dealing with someone like terrorists who have no respect for the legal aspects of war, you sometimes have to change your tactics. Waterboarding doesn't kill...explosives and Scud missiles do. Surely, you are mature enough to see the difference. When you have a child serving in a war with terrorists who have no shame, guilt, or respect for the law, come back and talk legalities.

You must think you are the only one.... - JTBB

[ In Reply To ..]
who has been affected by the wars. How self centered of you. Do you think the concerns of an Iraqi soldier's mother are of less importance than your own? You really are bitter considering how lucky you have been.

As for hipocrisy, I call them as I see them, regardless of political affiliation. However, this discussion is regarding that of the former president. In other words, try to stay on the subject.

Not self-centered at all.... - KAT

[ In Reply To ..]
you're a very presumptious person. Of course, the Iraqi soldier's mothers are concerned for their children, but in case you didn't realize, many of the Iraqi people, mothers included, welcomed the American military over there. They weren't all against the US being there. Discussions have a way of changing topic. In other words, don't be a bully. That won't work with me. And this discussion is over unless in the last half hour you gave birth to a soldier. ; )

LOL - JTBB

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The soldier's mother assumes her way to an imagined higher station.

LOL..still assuming I see. - KAT

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`

No assumptions needed here. Your own words illustrate her point beautifully - all by themselves.

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P-U. It doesnt get more self-righteous than this. Do you hear yourself? This national tragedy belongs to us all. Being the parent of a soldier does not give you exclusive ownership rights, nor does it qualify you to pronounce who can and cannot speak on the subject. Get a grip, will ya?

Who's saying you can't speak?? - KAT

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It certainly isn't me. Far be it from me to take away the right that my daughter fought for so you could enjoy. I think you are the one who needs to get a grip. LOL

Huh? - sm

[ In Reply To ..]
What right did your daughter "fight" for so I could enjoy? All the US military does is traipse around the world causing trouble. This country would be better served if people like your daughter would stay home and do something constructive right here in the United States!

You might change your tune... - KAT

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when the terrorists are on your doorstep with machetes ready to cut off your head. People like you don't know what they've got--freedom--until it's taken from them.

You didn't answer my question. - sm

[ In Reply To ..]
Exactly what "right" is your daughter fighting for on my behalf? Personally, I would be appalled if any child of mine wanted to join the military. You might want to rethink that "pride" you so vociferously profess to have.

It's called FREEDOM... - KAT

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Without a military, we wouldn't have it. Are you daft??

Give me specific examples please. - sm

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Exactly what has your daughter done to preserve my "freedom?" Can you name one constructive thing she has done for the United States while in the military? Our military has done nothing but wreak havoc throughout the world. Talk about daft...

You don't have a clue... - KAT

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`

Evidently you dont either. You cannot even back up - your own posts. nm

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nm

That is absolutely not true.... - Kendra

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Please try to do some research before you speak about something. Our military spends a whole lot of time, money and energy pursuing humanitarian efforts. My husband's last deployment had more than one det dedicated to drilling wells to provide clean drinking water to poor people. They built school houses in Chechnya. They built buildings in Senegal. Even more humanitarian aid was administered, but I must admit, I really didn't keep track of all of the different detachments. This was a LONG peace-time deployment. Our military does not only "wreak havoc throughout the world." Much time and effort is also spent trying to create the good will that many liberals so blindly refuse to see doesn't really change the way anyone feels about the United States, including many American liberals. Perhaps even more money should be spent to publicize the good things we do? But then, you all would probably just scream that it isn't done for the right reasons. It's very difficult to change a mind that does not want to be changed. Just tell me, after all of the havoc that this woman's daughter has allegedly wreaked, would you stand between her and a threat, should it be in your front yard?

Terrible people doing terrible things. - Kendra

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http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=58013

I can post more, if you really want specific examples.

Perhaps you should.... - JTBB

[ In Reply To ..]
try having a discussion on your own merit instead of riding the service of your daughter.

Perhaps you should birth a soldier ; ) - KAT

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`

Idk KAT, after reading these posts, I finding that to - be a scary suggestion nm

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xx

You assume I haven't........ - JTBB

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.....

that is reprehensible - stop it!

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How dare you elevate your personal situation beyond that of global treaty. That is insipid, tasteless, and ignorant.

Failure to abide by the agreements of the Geneva convention puts our armed services at heightened danger.

How idiotic of you to play the mommy card. Somehow this makes you grander than those among us who gave birth to mere citizens? Or [gasp] people who have no children at all? I can't stand this mommy baloney. It's such a load of self-righteous, churlish stupidity.

Oh gasp...how dare me... - KAT

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If you are so immature to misunderstand the content of my message, you really shouldn't respond. I told the poster I would no longer discuss this with her/him until they had basically walked in my shoes, which is worrying yourself to death day and night with concern over your child in harm's way as any mother of a soldier will tell you the same. It doesn't make me grander...it does make me a worried mother which I have every right to be. Get a grip. You are losing it. LOL

She is right to call a spade a spade. - Reprehensible just about sums it up. sm

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You have gone beyond the pail. Whatever point you are trying to make has been buried under your insufferable attitude. I am the mother of a disabled vet who lost his leg and his mind in service to his country. Being the parent of military service members does NOT give anyone the right to call rank or presume their suffering has made them privy to some sort of special understanding mere mortals cannot comprehend. Give it a rest. You are making me feel slimed at the very idea I may have something in common with you.

You are by no means a mother... - KAT

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if you do not comprehend what I am saying. Yes, do give it a rest. I have nothing in common with you.

You cannot offend someone into agreeing with you - or submitting to your lunacy.

[ In Reply To ..]
With a grown child in the service, hopefully you are beyond your childbearing years. You give motherhood a bum wrap to be sure. I am sure you will never allow a final word to anyone but your own magnificence, so have at it, but keep in mind that the more you try to push your point, the less credible it becomes. You have lost your argument completely when you cannot even allow a disabled vets mother address you without having to endure your ignorant insults and myopic narcissism.

A disabled vets mother... - KAT

[ In Reply To ..]
who chided me for the concern I had for my child. I could care less what you think about my credibility. I am here merely to express my opinion like everyone else. I have endured plenty of insults myself. Go cry to someone else.

Play victim much? She did not chide you for - concern for your child.

[ In Reply To ..]
She took issue with your rude attitude and use of motherhood to disparage other posters who merely expressed opposing views. Did it ever occur to you that mothers are not a monolithic group who experience war in exactly the same way you do?

If you are telling me that some mothers... - KAT

[ In Reply To ..]
do not worry or have concern when their child or any other relative is involved in a war then I would have to say you are either a lunatic or don't have children of your own. In that case, most people are indifferent to what a soldier and his/her family goes through. Any mother is not going to express an opposing view about concern over their children who are involved in a war or, I'll say it again, they are no mother. You may find my attitude rude but I find yours condescending. Your view is opposing. It doesn't necessarily make it right. My older brother was in the Vietnam war and my mother worried every day and prayed constantly for his safe return. He did come home, thankfully. You take issue with me because you think my concern for my daughter should not play a part in my opinions about wartime events such as waterboarding. You believe my concern should be for the poor terrorists and that, more than likely, stems from the fact you think we shouldn't be involved in the first place and, therefore, our military is on your %$#@& list. I have a totally different take and opinion of our wonderful military and the part they play in the freedoms we enjoy. If I defend that and you find me rude, well, that is your problem. : )

you are weak - see message

[ In Reply To ..]
You bully everyone who responds to you. You wear your motherhood on your sleeve and berate other mothers who have a different opinion. You are so ignorant that you think those opposed to torture are concerned for the "poor terrorists".

People like you do more to put our military in danger than any single bullet.

Bullets don't create wars. Ideologies do. Why don't you put some of that motherly love in place and do something to protect your daughter and her cohorts.

Cut out the ignorant babble before someone gets hurt.

Talk about a bully.... - KAT

[ In Reply To ..]
You think it's "your way or the hiway." Give it a rest. You cannot offend me into changing my beliefs or ideals. Liberals like you are far more dangerous than terrorists. ; )

thus proving my point - see message

[ In Reply To ..]
You are going to tell me that what I think? That is laughable.

Further, there are plenty of conservatives who are opposed to torture.

You are a mess of bigotry and codependence.

Give it a rest....PLEASE - KAT

[ In Reply To ..]
You definitely are aggressive and harrassing. You are not going to change one thing about me nor I you. LET IT GO....Are you also homosexual? You are as pushy as they come. ; )

And I really could care less... - KAT

[ In Reply To ..]
if you or the vet's mother or anyone else agrees with me. You can't offend me to that point either. The disabled vet's mother was rude IMO. She had no clue what I was referring to, yet chose to be sarcastic. Get off your self-made pedestal before it topples.

way over the top - other poster

[ In Reply To ..]
What a shocking response. You make no sense at all and are easily discredited.

Find another tree up which to bark.

yes, that's right - here's a newsflash

[ In Reply To ..]
Breaking international laws does not preserve or help our soldiers.

I understood the content of your message to be that torture is condoned by you because your child is fighting in the war.

I would expect my government to do everything in its power to protect my child and keep my soldier safe.

There are reasons we have treaties and sign international agreements. Breaching these is heinous, not to mention dangerous to our country and service people in all parts of the globe.

Your newsflash... - KAT

[ In Reply To ..]
obviously different than mine would be. Breaking international law is not a decision soldiers can make. They follow orders. Whether it helps or not is not the issue at hand. You understood the messager WRONG. Torture should not be condoned; however, torture can be viewed differently by many. Waterboarding would not be torture in comparison to having hour head cut off gradually with a dull machete and that goes whether my child is fighting in the war or not. If my child were a terrorist, I would be even more fearful for her and would hope to have my country liberated. Our government doesn't have the ability to keep our children safe. That's why so many come home in body bags. This is about my concerns over my child and you tried to make it into something else for a reaon all your own. You, apparently, had no concern or worry over your child. I did mine. Therefore, I find it hard to believe much of what you say. As I said, we have nothing in common. You just want to argue for the sake of arguing. Give it a rest.

I really can't understand your post - .

[ In Reply To ..]
i wish you well anyway

Well, that makes two of us...nm - KAT

[ In Reply To ..]
`

maybe you can explain your support for drones - better than mika

[ In Reply To ..]

http://www.dronetek.net/dronetek/mika-brzezinski-cant-explain-why-liberals-support-drone-strikes-oppose-waterboarding

NOTE: In my opinion, FDR should have been prosecuted for his war crimes. After all the law is the law. Slaughtering millions of innocent people (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) should never have happened. Now we have obama slaughtering innocent families for supposed terrorists locations.

credibility?? - see message

[ In Reply To ..]
Check out KAT asking me if I am a homosexual:

http://general.mtstars.com/262499.html

Really? If it would have been done keep us - from having 911, you would

[ In Reply To ..]
still say it is wrong? From what I have seen, it was questionable as to whether it actually was illegal when Bush gave the okay to do it.

He may be a man, but at that time, he was the President of the United States, Commander in Chief. He had to make decisions on what he felt was best for our country. I am sure there are things that go on every day even in the Obama administration that some would not approve of.

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time taking up for people who have associated themselves with terrorists.

I just don't get it. We have the death penalty. We allow people to be put in tiny prison cells for a lifetime, but waterboarding is illegal and torture.

Regardless of whether or not... - JTBB

[ In Reply To ..]
you actually agree if it should be illegal or not, the fact remains that it is illegal. That fact should not be changed just when it's convenient for us.

Would it be okay for a man to rob you so long as his family was hungry, or would you demand justice?

I actually can't say yes or no on that one because - I know people will do what

[ In Reply To ..]
they have to do to feed their kids. The difference is, if they asked I would provide all I could, whereas when the crimes of waterboarding came to play was when the people were uncooperative.

I actually disagree that about it should not be changed in convenience. The President should be able to make calls such as that. We are not talking about someone stealing for their family. We are talking about known terrorists. One of the ones waterboarded admitted to 30 something terror plots.

You can do all kinds of comparisions. It is illegal for me to speed, but if I had someone hurt and needing to be in the emergency room, you better believe I would do it and hope that any cop that saw me would have some understanding. That is breaking the law also.

I do believe in exceptions in some cases with the law, and for national protection purposes, I do believe that should be an exception.

When the president can change or redefine law.... - JTBB

[ In Reply To ..]
we no longer have a presidency, rather a dictatorship.

That we can agree on. That's a lot have been - saying about the healthcare

[ In Reply To ..]
reform law. That it is unconstitutional and illegal. But, hopefully, we will get lucky this time and stop it before any crime against our rights is committed.

but JTBB - sm

[ In Reply To ..]
President Obama said the Federal judge in Florida was wrong. So then, doesn't Obama get to make the rules and interpret the law? lol

There's a big difference... - JTBB

[ In Reply To ..]
The constitutional merit of the health care act is being decided in court. Obama disagreeing with a decision does not mean much when the court will have the final say.

Bush, on the other hand, simply hired lawyers for an interpretation of the law and then acted (ordering waterboarding) without any court decision and going against the precedent.

Apples and oranges.

well - as far as I know

[ In Reply To ..]
the court DID decide. When asked about it, Obama said, "Well, I think the judge in Florida was wrong." Really Mr. President (or anyone else for that matter)? It sounds like he thinks he's above the law (and narcissistic). Anyone who thought a federal judge ruling was wrong and ignored it would be held in contempt of court. I understand it would be difficult to hold an entire administration in contempt of court, but why are there different rules for different people?

Right apples and oranges. I keep hearing about the - laws, its the law

[ In Reply To ..]
and we have to uphold all laws. I knew because you are so anti-Bush that you would probably be for the Healthcare even though I see it as being against the law, and judges have agreed. I figured you may be for breaking this law.

can't say yes or no? - really?

[ In Reply To ..]
so...you can't determine if someone is robbing you until you know the reason for the robbery? That's ridiculous.

As for your example: Certainly, if any of us had to rush a loved one to the hospital, we would be speed and break the law. But, if we clobbered another human being while going 90, do you really think the courts would excuse us because we had a reason to speed?

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