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Possible alternative answer to food stamp fraud

Posted: May 17, 2015

Well, unable to get to church due to a knee joint flare (not mine) and playing nurse, I noticed others were asking below for alternative solutions to food stamp fraud other than Scott Walker's expensive and absurd plan to overhaul the EBT system to restrict types of food and drug test recipients. So how about this?

Ask the food stamp recipients to turn in their monthly grocery receipts to their caseworker for review. Give them 3 strikes or they're out.

Not only does it verify the food stamps are being used correctly, but it makes the consumer directly responsible for their own choices, as well as documenting that the opportunity for learning self-awareness (as well counseling on budgeting/eating habits) was given to them 3 times before they struck out.

No extra cost, just extra time for the consumer and caseworker (and perhaps at most a small pay increase for the caseworker for their extra time).

Badda bing, badda boom, and we're done. No expensive computer system overhauls, no expensive drug testing.

Leave it to "we the people" to come up with the simplest and least expensive ways to manage budget problems, because as opposed to politicians, we actually are able balance our own home budgets ;)

;

There's still potential for fraud. In 2013 more than - 47 million Americans received

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food stamps, a 70% increase over 2008. Food stamps cost taxpayers $76.4 billion that year, so the officially reported rate of enrollment fraud is just over 2% or $1.67 billion per year.

There are 2 parts to the benefits, 1 is “food stamps”which have a cash value and can't be used an ATM and part 2 is the cash assistance side of welfare. This is essentially cash and this can be withdrawn at an ATM. At present, our legislature here in CO is debating legislation that would bar use of the cash portion at ATM. This is where I see the potential for fraud.

Much of the abuse of the EBT program could be solved by limiting EBT purchases to healthy foods like is done with the WIC program.

I work in the wine & spirits department part time in a large grocery chain. I have frequently seen EBT customers pay cash for a cheap bottle of whiskey and then whip out their EBT card to pay for a 99 cent bottle of soda as a mixer.

No, it is not possible to exchange food stamps for cash through an ATM . One card - but different accounts (TANF vs. SNAP) - JS

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It is not possible to exchange food stamps for cash at an ATM or anywhere else legally.

So what must've been witnessed instead, at the liquor store, was the person used the card at the ATM first to obtain cash from their TANF/cash welfare account, then used the same card to access their SNAP benefits account for the soda, much like we use one card to access checking or saving accounts.

PS: As the clerk, note there's no "cash back" feature at the counter terminal for the - card, thus his need for the ATM ;) - JS

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nm

I guess you're being told you didn't experience that - sm

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You must be mistaken…LOL

The takers will always find a way to commit fraud. It's in their DNA. It's been propagated during this administration.

There's a whole industry in foodstamp fraud. - I did a search and found

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food stamps sold on all social media site, arrests in NC, food stamp fraud rampant in GAO report, costs millions just to crack down on it, not to mention the billions in the fraud alone, the Consumerist Magazine has an article on fraud.

Each state calculates the benefit differently. For example, some states have asset tests and others don’t. The 2008 Farm Bill actually removed the asset test but not all states comply. In addition, some states have state-paid food assistance in addition to the federal. States have their own procedures for “deductions” from income to establish the amount that is actually counted. So $10,000 gross income in one state can be very different from $10,000 in another. My state has considered putting photo ID on the EBT card but this creates problems — for example — the spouse with the photo is ill and can’t go out. I have to say that my state’s estimates for fraudulent trading of benefits is low. I'll see if I can talk to someone involved with investigation of tanf/snap fraud myself.

No, I'm saying that's logical assumption at a glance. But 1 card can hold more than 1 govt - benefit acct.We don't know the acct chosen JS

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Otherwise, we have to assume the cardholder got the cash by choosing from their TANF, unemployment or SSI account for the whiskey, but used the SNAP food stamp benefit for the pop, both on the same card.

Because exchanging food stamps for cash (or anything else) under any circumstances is illegal in all 50 states. If that were true, they could get cash back at the counter and there'd be no need for the ATM then.

I agree, though, that guy is abusing the system. Was he reported to the government's fraud hotline or just on this forum? Because the witness was in the perfect position to do so, working at a liquor store. They usually have cameras plus register tape copy of receipts.

I personally wouldn't report him myself, it's none of my business, just sayin'. Plus that'd be be like reporting a practicing alcoholic to essentially a bunch of practicing-alcoholic politicians :)

Remember those videos of people stealing from - Walmart when their EBT

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cards "malfunctioned" and all those people crashing through doors?

It's amazing when you look at a chart on food stamp growth, - they spend millions on advertisng too,

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in English and Spanish, and instructions in 34 languages. The American Red Cross here in Mass. hired part time translators to teach them how to apply for food stamps.

Meanwhile, the US Park Service, part of the Department of Agriculture, EPA, SS, FDA, the housing department, all of the govt agencies all grow. Why don't they just combine some of them or get rid of some them, streamline or downsize like the rest of us. Free up some of that money to be used.

Our household monthly income for 3 is just under $3000.00 gross. We have no health insurance. I got it through a Christian Ministries (major medical) so I wouldn't have to pay the Obamacare penalty. I tried but am not entitled to any freebies. The woman from the state told me I should have my husband cut his hours by 4 per week. That would make us eligible for food stamps, insurance, heat assistance etc.

Great, not only do they tell you when you are not eligible, they also tell you how to become eligible. Idiots!

Just limit what you can buy with them, just like - WIC, problem solved and

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no money spent.

We have a small store in town that sells nothing - BUT WIC-approved foodstuffs,

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WIC restricts users to healthy foods.

But turning in monthly grocery receipts costs the govt less than brand new IT systems - was my point - JS

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Plus accounting for their own purchases makes THEM responsible rather than the government, the caseworker just assists in management 3 times or they're out.

As for the commenter who made a point below that they could buy the food and trade it for drugs still, that's actually a really good point I didn't think of.

However, it's really not our job to determine what they do with the food once they buy it. People who aren't on food stamps trade lots of stuff for drugs and that really isn't my business, that sounds more like a job for the DEA.

But the amount of fraud is our business, and those are the - ones that need to be reigned in,

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your idea of the receipts could be implemented somewhere as a pilot program and from there you'll find out how well it will work and how it can be manipulated, because believe me it will be.

True, but my point was what people do (or trade for) with actual food once they have it is neither - the govt's business nor ours - JS

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That was my point in the above comment, with regards to the point made about trading food for drugs.

If someone is that much if a junkie they're trading actual food they bought with food stamps for drugs, they need rehab then, not a fraud charge.

True story: My 76-year-old neighbor was told he couldn't also get food stamps because his fixed income was "too much" at 1100 a month, though he was paying rent from that as well with no subsidy. Our community rallied around to feed him. One of my other elderly neighbors WAS on food stamps, and yet she shared what she had with him anyway. Now is THAT fraud?

No, that's not fraud. That's probably not unusual, - that's not the kind of activity

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that need to be reformed.

I agree. And I know he was ineligible because I took him to get them - JS

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He was a widower and former exercise rider for horse farms with no actual retirement benefits, just social security, in the early stages of dementia and no family.

Additionally, the horse farm had cheated him on paying his state taxes so he had been paying the IRS back for years, but they didn't even consider that in the equation. He ended up going to the track to hot walk horses for $20 at 76 years old because he remembered how to do that and for food.

I couldn't believe he was turned down completely for food stamps, he didn't even have a car and we had brought everything and reported everything honestly. Granted, his personality didn't make things easy for him and he should've prepared better for retirement, maybe, but he didn't, lots of people don't, and his situation was still his situation and none of that mattered by then.

That's my point, it's not as easy to get food stamps as people think, they don't get as much as people think, and things aren't always as they may appear at first glance - you never know a person's situation.

I realize that, and I'm sorry for his situation. - How nice of you to help,

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and the people who really need help are not the focus, it's the fraudsters who are cheating people like this who really need help, they are the target.

There are also people who know how to work the system, but no one wants to deny benefits to real people in need. Maybe that's where the misunderstanding is.

Thank you, but as I said earlier - WE helped him, all of his neighbors - JS

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Not just me.

I have had money and have been as poor as dirt, and it has been my experience that the poor typically give their last dime to help each other and share what they have, while typically the wealthy would rather hoard and complain about the IRS and imagine everyone has an angle to get what they have. Even when someone's just being nice to them/others because that's how they were raised or from empathy, they'll accuse of them of having an angle anyway, possibly because THEY always have an angle themselves and are projecting.

Though "cheater" personality types exist in either the wealthy or the poor, it has typically been my experience that more "cheater" type personalities have actually been in the wealthier people I was around. They invariably assumed everyone else cheated because they did.

And fraud is fraud, whether that's government assistance fraud, bad stocks and junk bonds, embezzlement, insurance fraud or tax evasion. I don't think we should single out one type of fraud only, nor should we penalize the entire group because of a few thieves, to include either restriction or price-raising to cover loss.

If the problem is that the system itself can be frauded, the focus should be on fixing the the chinks in the chain, not trying to fix the consumers themselves.

I don't think a person's character is measured by - how much money they have

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and I think the root problem is human nature. I know poor people who tithe in my church the last penny they have, and we have "rich" who donate a lot to charity.

I don't really think the problem will ever be fixed because you can't change human nature. I think what you did for your neighbor is how people used to handle things before all these govt programs. We helped each other, as well as churches.

I too believe in individual, face-to-face - charity, but it is not enough

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I have been in the church office when the calls come in, constant calls, asking for help with electricity bills, gas bills, gasoline for car trips for one reason or another that are a necessity, medication, medical bills, et cetera. The churches cannot handle this all, the private voluntary action centers cannot handle it all, and to diminish the government programs would make it that much harder.

And, it really bothers me that someone else gets to judge someone's need, other than just on the basic guidelines of need; that is what happens when it is "private" charity versus government programs.

As for tithing, the poor widow gave all she had - JS

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I didn't mean that's true about everyone who's wealthy, I've met some very wonderful wealthy people, I met generally speaking.

Since you mentioned tithing in your comment, I think that's what Christ meant too in the widow's parable, the poor will give a greater percentage of what they have vs. the wealthy, especially privately.

I don't think he meant to give to our own detriment, no. However, he did also tell a wealthy man (who'd asked how he could be saved) to not only follow all God's commandments AND his, but to give up all that he had to the poor and follow him. Then the man ran away lol.

I like parables, they teach lessons in an interesting way. I don't know - what state you live in but

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I'm in the Midwest and I've search to see what kind of help there is out there for people like your neighbor or anyone really (other than the govt agencies). I found several in my state. There's a church here where you can pay $35 and get a ton of groceries, no strings attached, help with utilities, rent. Of course this is only temporary. I found a website called Millionaires Money, looks interesting but I have no personal dealings with it.

I belong to a prepper's group with many people with different skills. I can cook and can and I have a friend who provides the veggies and we share it. I have another friend whose husband does household chores for single women, bartering. I don't mean to sound cheesy but every little bit helps.

Prayers to you.

Thank you, I appreciate that, but this was 2010, things are much better now. St. Vincent de Paul was - great though - JS

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Thank you, very kind of you, but that was 2010 and in another area of the state. Things are much better for me now, just a rough patch for me, but for him it was permanent.

As for my neighbor, unfortunately he has passed, but his gift in return was teaching us newbies to unemployment and being newly poor about St. Vincent de Paul which has many options that can help, including paying
my electric bill one month when things were at their darkest.

I guess his gift/their gift for me in return was it's okay to ask for help at places like these sometimes, there's no shame in it. Doesn't mean you're weak or failed and it doesn't mean things won't improve.

In fact, I am blessed now with a great-paying job and I met my fiance 3 years ago and he will be in a very important/influential position in a major city here in about 2 months.

But I hope I never forget what it was like nor the assumptions people make. I already was a compassionate, empathetic person, but now I can be sympathetic as well. And it taught me how difficult it really is to climb out of it, that's for sure, more than you think. But things can get better, there is always hope, I'm living proof - thanks be to God :)

You still need the drug testing. People who buy - 20 lbs of hamburger and trade it for

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drugs/booze/cigarettes can't be seen by the system. I’d expect officially recognized fraud to be about a fifth of what there is.

Maybe they should start using an electronic signature like credit cards instead of a pin. That would at least eliminate some of the fraud.

Man pleads guiltyto $400,000 in food stamp - fraud...

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A Riverdale man pleaded guilty Tuesday in federal court in Atlanta to a $400,000 food stamp scheme.

Herbert Dix, 49, admitted to defrauding the U.S. Department of Agriculture and possessing forged Women, Infant and Children (WIC) vouchers while running a store in Griffin, the U.S. Attorney’s Office said....

Dix was indicted last July on 18 counts of WIC fraud and 83 counts of possession of forged securities. He pleaded guilty to every charge, authorities said.

Dix owned and operated Spank’s Quick Stop in Griffin, and the store was authorized to redeem WIC vouchers for specified food items. Dix and his employees broke the law by paying cash for the WIC vouchers instead of taking them as payment for the food items listed on the vouchers, prosecutors said.

An undercover officer entered into illegal transactions 18 times at the store, receiving cash for blank WIC vouchers that Dix later filled in with an amount “significantly greater” than what he paid for them, authorities said. He deposited the vouchers into his bank account.

When a search warrant was executed in December 2010, more than 100 blank WIC vouchers were seized. Authorities later determined by analyzing Dix’s bank records that more than $400,000 had been fraudulently obtained from the USDA between 2010 and 2011....

This is just one man in one location. Back in the 1990s - my sister was a teller in a bank

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and noticed one store owner bringing in wads of stamps in straight numerical order, as if the had been ripped wholesale from the book, some people told us they were being sold at 50c on the dollar. She contacted the manager, who notified the authorities. A month later the guy was still doing the same thing with different tellers. The manager notified the authorities again and was told the guy was "under surveillance" but he was still doing the same thing five years later and he evidently was still "under surveillance" and he was still cashing in the stamps in numerical order.

Fraud everywhere--relative subject - sm

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Frankly, I would rather poor people commit fraud in that individual way than the rich getting richer.

The EBT card system has helped combat fraud and improved the dignity in the process.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/08/just-how-wrong-is-conventional-wisdom-about-government-fraud/278690/

All government programs are filled with fraud, from some recipients to some - administrators, Medicare,

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Social Security, Medicaid, SSDI, government and contracts (just ask Nancy Pelosi), all of them, billions in fraud.

Power-hungry politicians and grabbers share - blame too by promoting

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policies that cause people to need assistance.

For instance, when a politician makes some claim about the necessity of raising the minimum wage to a “livable” wage, they fall for the claim, hook line and sinker. The fact that minimum wage is a starter wage, meant for young people to get the experience in the job market that will help them advance is, to their minds, nothing more than “right-wing propaganda”, meant to make the rich richer. They don’t see the connection between promoting minimum wage increases and opening the border to low-skilled illegals who, if they work at all, are paid extremely low wages that are only a fraction of the minimum wage.

For power-hungry politicians, pricing young people out of the job market while diverting training jobs to unskilled illegal immigrants is a win-win situation. They get the vote of the unemployed because they make such a big noise about how they want to improve their lives with “living wages.” They get the vote of the illegals because they opened the doors to the promised land. (Oh, did I mention vote fraud?) They get the vote of emotion-driven liberals who cannot see the logical consequence of actions if they were shown a flow-chart demonstrating the clear cause-and-effect relationships of actions and reactions.

Drop in the bucket - burtthecat

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Food stamp abuse is a drop in the bucket compared to subsidies to billion dollar agribusiness companies as well as to multinational corporations moving offshore and paying no taxes to the US Govt. It is so typical of the right wing to blame all our budgetary problems on the poor.

Funny if not so sad--Rep. can't see forest - for the trees?

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Typical of Republican logic. Pick up some weird tangent and run with it, gain momentum and call it an issue.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/05/01/wisconsin-republicans-think-potatoes-and-spices-are-too-fancy-for-poor-people/

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