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It doesn't happen in other advanced countries with this

Posted: Jun 18, 2015

President Obama, PLEASE take their guns...

I'll just bet this Roof was a "responsible" gun owner---until last night.

;

Are you serious? nm - ^^aero^^

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nm

Not completely, but very frustrated - sm

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These happenings are inexcusable and a severe tightening of gun laws is the only viable answer IMO

Criminals don't obey the gun laws, only law abiding citizens. - That's the problem. You aren't supposed

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to have a gun in church anyway.

Tell that to the relatives of all those killed. - nm

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In China between 2010-2012, a series of coordinated - mass stabbings, cleaver and hammer

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attacks happened, leaving 25 dead and 115 injured.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010%E2%80%9312)

In 2012 alone in the U.S. - sm

I see the point as someone is going to kill using - whatever is available, whether

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it's a razor, a hammer, or a gun.

Do you have any idea how hard it would have - been to have hammered 9 people

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point is that guns are way too easy to use purposefully and accidentally.

the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. - MI MT

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Will never happen, but you can keep dreaming. I love my guns and I enjoy shooting at the range and I carry them with me for self defense. It is my right as an American (in my state anyway). Taking that right away from people to defend themselves is stupid because murders, rapists, thugs don't follow rules anyway, so should I just lay down and be a victim??

One can only hope--as I said, he was - responsible right up until last night

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Probably enjoyed the firing range and collecting/owning that gun. Got it as a birthday present.

Gotta wonder about his parents. He already - had lots of problems long before -

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they got him the gun. He'd been arrested on drug charges, and had been banned from a local mall for asking weird questions there, such as how many sales people worked there, and what time they left work. All this before he got the gun. His parents share part of the blame in this. That kid had major problems, and they had to have known it.

My daughter is so proud, she just got her carry permit. In this - day and age, I'm glad. NM

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NM

Carrying a gun can make you feel safer, but - the problem comes when - sm

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you actually USE it. Then, unless you had a clearly open-and-shut self-defense case, AND a top-notch criminal defense attorney, you're the one that ends up doing 23-to-life in prison.

I prefer pepper spray, thank you very much.

Pepper spray is for defense. The problem is the criminal. If not - a gun, then a knife or something else.NM

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Nm

Criminals can use pepper spray too, but at least - it doesnt (usually) kill the recipient.

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Or paralyze them. Or blow their face off. Milk is a fast-acting antidote to pepper spray and mace. Doesn't work so well on bullet holes.

In other countries they use machetes and bombs. - Some people are evil. xx

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xx

All the gun owners I know are sickened by what - happened in Charleston. Any

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murder of human beings is evil.

I got really bads news for you if you think the U.S. doesn't use bombs. - State the obvious

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The other bad news for you is that those things on the ends of certain rifles are called bayonets, a good multipurpose tool that works quite nicely as a slicing device. I won't explain how those are used against a human because it might upset life in a lot of people's bubbles. In other bad news, many, many Army soldiers carry machetes, especially tank crews and soldiers in the field. They're good for clearing brush and camouflaging tanks (wouldn't want to risk losing a $6,000,000 piece of government property because it wasn't well hidden), and they also work quite nicely as killing devices too, if need be.

Ever seen a MOAB? It's one of our really awesome bombs. (see link) It creates a blast radius of 1 mile, not quite as awesome as a nuclear bomb, mind you, but for destruction's sake, the non-nuclear MOAB gets the job done.

Edited Original Post to "Advanced" missed - in quote of President Obama

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In the discussion, it was implied, that a civilized society such as our own should be able to achieve a higher standard than third world countries killing each other with Molotov cocktails and machetes.

Of course - Blanche

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Well of *course* pepper spray is for defense. Are you suggesting the gun an earlier posters daughter got a permit for isn't for defense?

Missing clause - Blanche

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It's funny how gun nuts always seem to leave out the opening clause of he Second Amendment...

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

That 'well regulated' bit makes them uncomfortable apparently. What the gun nuts really want is no regulations at all.

And a Militia, in the sense that it meant when the Bill of Rights was written, hasn't been necessary to security in ages. We've got formal military agencies to guard us against external threats, and police and National Guard that serve admirably against internal threats.

Your right to keep and bear arms ends where everyone else's rights to not be cut down by a dirtbag gun nut start.

Totally disagree - with you

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and I am a gun-owning liberal/independent.

I understand, liberals can fear for their safety - too

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xx

I dont fear for my safety - as much as we hunt

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and target shoot. People don't just fit into neat little Republican/Democrat stereotypes.

Political affiliation does not matter - sm

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Target shooting with your hunting rifle -no problem - not an automatic I would presume.

Sure, I'd go for peace symbols, flowers and such and say no guns at all, but hunting and such are for some people. I get that.

And I agree with your disagreement. Shooter "Roof" was caught btw (see link) - Julia Sugarbaker

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I'd like to see higher age restriction and better/longer training and more comprehensive and frequent recerts/relicensing, but not take them away entirely, for safety OR hunting.

Otherwise, I'm sure most have heard by now, but Roof was caught at a traffic light at 11 a.m. These were his motivations, according the WSJ:

"Mr. Roof allegedly made anti-black statements during the shooting spree, which occurred around 9 p.m. Eastern Time, telling his victims that they were taking over the country and “raping our women.”

But 6 of the 9 killed were women, what the ???

And "taking over the country" - I've heard this on this very forum about blacks and Mexicans :(

See, this is what I've been talking about with too much political polarization/politically-backed group-hatred, pushed by the media, on both sides these days - underlying hatred, a disease which has never needed guns to infect others with/inflict damage, but I guess it's now come to that?:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/charleston-church-shooting-suspect-dylann-roof-in-police-custody-1434642237

PS: And just 1 month ago, someone posted here that blacks were more prone to violence:( - Julia Sugarbaker

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And I believe I said at the time that middle-class white males were statistically the serial-killers and rampage shooters, but the media often calls them "killing sprees" instead, which is wildly inappropriate

Let us hope they don't make the same mistake reporting this story in the coming days.

Prevalence of gun violence - sm

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The shootings at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in downtown Charleston, South Carolina cause many of us to recoil in horror and despair. Is there no end to the hate? To the mass shootings? What can possibly be done?

The right says the answer is to arm more people with more guns (even allowing them to carrying concealed weapons in public places) while cutting spending on the mentally ill. Other rich nations do the opposite: They ban guns and help the mentally ill. Which approach works best? One way to find out is to compare firearm homicide rates in the U.S. with other rich nations. According to the Global Burden of Disease Study, rates of homicides from guns are 6.6 times larger in the US than in Portugal, the country with one of the highest rates in Western Europe. We don’t do much better when compared to lesser-developed nations; the U.S. has higher rates of homicides from guns than Pakistan, Russia, South Africa, and Kenya.

So unless you believe Americans are inherently more violent than the citizens of these other countries, you have reason to believe that banning or at least regulating guns and helping the mentally ill are the only sane directions.
Robert Reich

The laws need changing or enforcing, but - your first sentence

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Is exactly what the tea party/ultra conservatives/pro NRA people have been giving lip service to for years now.

Nobody needs to take anyone's guns, but please why can't we at least make it harder for some people to get them in the first place when they should not have them?

Please can we stop with this nonsensical open carry BS which scares the crap out of people and has resulted in a rush of idiots shooting themselves and little babies and children dying?

There should be change, and it should be at the federal level. The link shows how many more homicides by gun happen here - many multiples of most other civilized countries. The NRA has effectively stopped research into the public impact of gun violence.

And the answer from the pro gun people to this tragedy? Those people in the church should have been carrying and shot the "bad guy." What utter nonsense. Why on earth would anyone assume someone would come into a church to perpetrate that? Why would someone do that in a church?

More guns is never the answer, guns in our schools and churches is not the answer.

I agree! - Canadian

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I agree with your comment. I'm a Canadian and we have a gun registry here and it is illegal to carry a gun. Yes, we have the occasional incident but for the most part gun violence is minimal.

Me too - Aussie

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Yes, you can source a gun illegally here if you really want to. If you genuinely need one, eg, a farmer, you can get one. Those who enjoy hunting can get one. Those who want to shoot at targets can get one.

There will always be an element of "society" who will have guns with the intent to use them to get what they want and/or hurt others. No amount of legislation can stop that. They have the money and they have the contacts. These days especially, these weapons are usually used against each other - one organised crime group "solving a dispute" or retaliating against another.

But I don't need to worry that the idiot teenager down the street is going to easily be able to get his hands on a gun in his parent's bedside drawer. I don't need to worry that the moron who hijacks a car or breaks into a house is going to have easy access to weapons and ammo. I don't need to worry that a toddler is going to find a gun in his mum's handbag and accidentally injure or kill himself, his mother or another innocent victim.

If everybody else has a gun, then you feel like you need one too. But here, nobody else is carrying one around so so why do I?

Very well said - Canadian

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Sounds like Australia has much the same laws/views with respect to gun control as here in Canada. Of course if someone wants to get a gun for legitimate purposes such as hunting, etc. they can. Criminals can also get a gun if they really want to but we don't have to worry about guns being "everywhere".

WHAT IF... - sm

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...the off-duty reserve officer had not had his gun in Oklahoma City the day the terrorist attempted to behead two women? The terrorist did behead one and attempted to behead the other, but the off-duty reserve officer had his gun and shot the terrorist dead!!!

He is an "officer" so presumably trained - but all those children killed by negligence

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and arming those that commit mass murders such as last night.

I'm surprised that the media is focusing on the - gun, & not that it was a hate crime.

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.

Worse than that - Blanche

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Faux News is pretending the racial aspect doesn't exists, and is trying to spin it as an attack on Christianity.

No doubt their viewers are lapping it up.

Big difference between an off-duty, trained - reservist and your typical - sm

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too-dumb-to-cross-the-street-by-themselves, drooling American citizen.

Guns rarely used for self-protection - sm

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The study’s findings include:
•In 2012, there were only 259 justifiable homicides involving a private citizen using a firearm. That same year, there were 8,342 criminal firearm homicides.

•In 2012, for every justifiable homicide in the United States involving a firearm, guns were used in 32 criminal homicides. This ratio does not include the tens of thousands of lives taken in suicides or unintentional shootings.

•Thirteen states reported zero justifiable firearm homicides by civilians in 2012: Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Idaho, Iowa, Montana, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, North Dakota, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Wyoming.

•Intended victims of violent crimes engaged in self-protective behavior with a firearm in only 0.8 percent of attempted and completed incidents between 2007 and 2011.

•Intended victims of property crimes engaged in self-protective behavior with a firearm in only 0.1 percent of attempted and completed incidents between 2007 and 2011.

•A significant percentage of the persons killed in a firearm justifiable homicide were known to the shooter, not random strangers. In 2012, 35.5 percent of persons killed in a firearm justifiable homicide were known to the shooter, 51.4 percent were strangers, and for 13.1 percent of persons the relationship was unknown.

•The shooters in justifiable homicides are overwhelmingly male. In 2012, of the 259 firearm justifiable homicides, 91.5 percent were committed by men.

•The 259 firearm justifiable homicides by private citizens in 2012 do not include shootings by law enforcement.

“Purchasing a gun may help enrich the firearms industry, but the facts show it is unlikely to increase your personal safety,” Sugarmann adds. “In fact, in a nation of more than 300 million firearms, it is striking how rarely guns are used in self-defense.”

https://www.vpc.org/press/1506self.htm

That's a whole lot of shooting! - Canadian

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My point exactly: 300 million firearms causes a whole lot of shooting - I don't care whether it's "justifiable homicides", someone's son going off the deep end and wiping out his classmates, or little Suzy finding Mommy's gun in the bedside table. Fewer guns = less carnage.

You're quite wrong. Firearms are used to prevent - crimes thousands of times every year.

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Comoparing "justifiable homicides" means that the weapon was fired and the victim died, then that the incident was adjudicated as such.

That is a very narrow understanding and a deliberate misrepresentation of the ways in which weapons prevent crimes, which omits the times that (a) the weapon was fired, but merely displayed, (b) if fired, the times that the perpetrator did not die or may not have been struck at all, and (c) the times that the incident never reached the point of adjudication.

Nice try, but no cigar.

Four people killed, 5 wounded in China Mass Shooting, - including 2 police officers,

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were killed in a shooting in China's northern Hebei province on Tuesday, state television reported on its official microblog.

The four killed in Suning county included at least one suspect, China Central Television said, giving few other details. The case was still under investigation.

Welcome to just another day on planet Earth. - :(

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I'm pretty sure we WERE all descended from killer apes, after all.

More gun data--I see unnecessary deaths - sm

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According to survey data compiled by Rogers, the US had 88.8 guns per 100 people in 2007 — compared with 54.8 in the second-closest country, Yemen. Reddit user

http://www.vox.com/2015/6/18/8806907/charleston-shooting-gun-violence

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