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Newtown Shooter Used a (semi-automatic) Rifle Popular Among Gun Owners.
Posted: Dec 16, 2012
victims' bodies."
Other excerpt from the N.Y. Times: "Gun control advocates contend that semiautomatic weapons like the AR-15, the civilian version of the military’s M-16 and M-4, are a logical choice for anyone whose goal is to kill a lot of people in a short time because of their ability to rapidly fire multiple high-velocity rounds.
“The people we’re talking about, once they get into ‘I want to kill a lot of people,’ it’s not a leap for them to see that these guns are made and designed for war,” said Tom Diaz, a senior policy analyst at theViolence Policy Center. “And if you look at the industry advertising, that is a consistent theme.”
AR-15s are not the only weapons used by rampaging shooters. Semiautomatic handguns are also frequently employed. In Newtown, in addition to the Bushmaster M-4 carbine, two handguns were found at the scene, a 10-millimeter Glock and a 9-millimeter Sig Sauer, although the rifle is what Mr. Lanza used, pumping up to 11 bullets into each victim’s body, according to the medical examiner. All three guns belonged to his mother, officials said.
In Colorado, Mr. Holmes carried two Glock handguns and a shotgun, the authorities said, as well as the AR-15. A Glock and a Walther were used by Seung-Hui Cho to kill 32 people and injure 17 at Virginia Tech in 2007.
Mr. Diaz said semiautomatic weapons, including the AR-15, are increasingly being used in the killings of police officers, whose vests often provide little protection against such firearms."
Rest of article at link below.
;
Semi-autos are extremely common. - LeonaG
[ In Reply To ..]But a semi-auto will "rapidly fire" only as rapidly as a person can pull the trigger, and the gun also has to cycle. It is one trigger pull, one bullet. A full-auto gun, like a machine gun, is 1 trigger pull, more than 1 bullet. These are only available with special licensing - unless you buy one on the street black market style.
People like the AR-15 because of its military-type styling and its usefulness for varmint control, target practice, etc. Yes, it may be a Scary Black Rifle, but that does not make it more (or less) lethal than other guns of similar caliber. "Assault weapon" is mostly a phrase used to frighten people who are not knowledgeable about guns, not a specific type of gun that can only be used to kill people.
...fires only as rapidly as a person can pull the trigger - how encouraging
[ In Reply To ..]your superior knowledge notwithstanding, I don't think we need to be disingenuous about the meaning of "assault weapon". While this weapon may be used for things other than killing people - like banging in a stubborn nail or opening cans of soup - I think we understand the purpose of this firearm. To assume that we are simply not knowledgeable about guns is unnecessary.
Varmint control, Target shooting, Certain types of hunting. - LeonaG
[ In Reply To ..]Those are uses to which this rifle can be put. The term "assault weapon" is indeed absolutely meaningless, with one exception. There was a law that banned certain types of guns that were called "assault weapons." But those guns did not have any special capabilities that made them more deadly than other common guns. They had things like bayonet holders, and added pistol grips, and folding or telescoping stocks.
If you knew anything, ANYTHING, about guns and had read the text of the old Assault Weapons Ban, you would know this.
There is not a civilian gun that has no other use but to kill people. Many, many people hunt small game with guns; kill varmints like coyotes, esp. with the very type of rifle that was used (or present at) this mass murder; plink at cans; target shoot.
I could take an old Volkswagen and add some body accessories to it that would make it look faster and more sporty. But under the hood, it would still be the same old poky 4-cylinder VW. THAT is how this gun is "military style." It LOOKS like the military gun. It most emphatically DOES NOT have the same capabilities, except that they both shoot bullets.
Really, if anybody tried this fear-mongering on a target shooting forum, you'd be laughed off. It's ludicrous. I should probably quit trying to educate you, because that will guarantee that you'll fail at whatever your gun agenda is.
seriously... - sm
[ In Reply To ..]in spite of your hubris, nothing you said argues against the need for certain controls on guns. If you think about it, you might agree.
Target shooting? For what? - bootstraps
[ In Reply To ..]I have no objection if you give up on us regarding educating us on guns that blow the guts out of human beings, of course after precise target shooting.
Talk to the Olympic committee. Maybe you can get it dropped. n/t - LeonaG
[ In Reply To ..]..
What a ridiculous argument. Olympic sports trumps - death and human suffering.
[ In Reply To ..]I. Am. So. Sure. Good luck with that one, hon.
Of course, it does not. - LeonaG
[ In Reply To ..]The one has nothing to do with the other.
Unless you are trying to argue that target shooters are an especially dangerous type of person. The fact that some guns were stolen from an apparent target shooter - as in the discussed case - hardly means that target shooting is "more important" than dead children. The reason children are shot is that there are target shooters? Ridiculous.
Good luck with that, yourself.
More people are murdered in an average day in the U.S. than were killed at the school in Connecticut - yet suddenly, our gun laws aren't good enough and We Must Do Something! The politicization of this is obvious and, I believe, unethical.
Breaking news just in. Target shooters are the LEAST - of my concerns.
[ In Reply To ..]In fact, you are making stuff up as you go along, just for the sheer pleasure only you derive from hearing yourself natter on. Kindly spare us the ethics spiel. This debate has taken off like a runaway train and has a life all its own. Bit late to cry over spilled milk and, besides, I doubt anyone is losing any sleep over what you approve or disapprove of.
You made the fallacious argument, not I. n/t - LeonaG
[ In Reply To ..]..
Leaping from ethics to logic, I see. - What you fail to realize is
[ In Reply To ..]I made no argument one way or the other regarding target shooters. That was an arm of the discussion you extended by way of supposition to create another soap box for yourself.
No, I used target shooters to show legitimate uses for guns - not merely as murder weapons
[ In Reply To ..]You were the one who claimed I thought they were more important than murdered children.
Banning target shooting as a hobby, unfortunately, will not mean that no more children are murdered by guns. Is that what you really think? Ridiculous.
There ya go again. Who, besides YOU, said anything - about
[ In Reply To ..]banning target practice? Get a grip. Your auditory hallucinations are getting WAY out of control and your paranoia is beginning to show. Assault weapons ban. Background checks. Population of databases. Meager requests. Got it?
YOU did. "Olympic sport trumps death and suffering." - Plus more ad hominems
[ In Reply To ..]You, or your sock, is the one who wrote that (paraphrased) just above.
The background check system could stand improvement. I appear to have been the only one to mention that. And I am the gun owner. Unfortunately, as I said in another post, I cannot point to online information to back up my statement; it is based on anecdotal evidence.
"Population of databases" means what, exactly? It doesn't appear to be useful to have a database showing who owns what guns. People who intend to use guns for evil don't usually acquire them legally in the first place. It is often stolen guns that are used in armed robberies and murders; knowing who bought the gun from the store tells the police little or nothing, as the owner is often unaware of *who* stole it. Law-abiding citizens who own guns are usually conscientious about reporting their theft, for obvious reasons.
"Assault weapons" as have been mentioned in here can be banned again. It appeared to make NO difference in the firearm homicide rate before. The cost of that ban and its enforcement might be put to better use with improvements in the background check, which as I have mentioned in another post, I think are needed.
Silencers and some other details which do make more than a cosmetic difference mostly remain illegal or very, very highly regulated.
You are officially arguing with youself, LG. I've - had all the negative spews
[ In Reply To ..]I can take from you, especially since I find very litte of what you have to say to be of any real interest. I prefer to chill out and revisit the inspirational broadcast earlier this evening when clergy from all faiths prayed for Sandy Hook survivors and the president got up and did a brilliant job of expressing appropriately compassionate sentiments and reassurances to them that these things MUST change. I look forward to seeing him put his words into actions, which I have no doubt he will do. I do appreciate the vote you perhaps unwittingly lent toward that effort.
I am falling asleep at the keyboard, but will close by saying your ad hominem hypocrisy was my last straw for the evening. Declare your victory, take your last best shot and get your must-have last word in. I could care less. Nighty-night.
We can start by calling it what it is. - sm
[ In Reply To ..]It's nothing but TERRORISM.
How fast would the USA jump to bomb a country in the middle east if we didn't think it was absolutely necessary (said with a grain of salt when thinking of GWB).
We have daily terrorism in this country, so these instances aren't just limited to a "school shooting," "mall attack," etc.
These have been terror attacks, yet we only use that term when it applies to another country.
Talk about hubris, none could be more prevalent in the USA, but the USA is too much in denial that WE have terrorists in this country, too. Once we understand that, then maybe a change for the better will be sought.
Sympathize, but terrorism is use of terror to achieve - a goal, usually an alternate war strategy. This
[ In Reply To ..]kid wasn't trying to create national terror as a way to get stricter gun laws enacted, for instance, or as a warning from a rebel group in another country to keep out of their affairs.
This was not terrorism, which is something very important in itself. It was murder.
BTW, speaking of weapons (and intrinsic danger), note that there are no wounded children or teachers in a hospital. All the people attacked with this semiautomatic weapon are dead.
I'm not sure we know at this juncture what motivated - the shooter.
[ In Reply To ..]For all we know, he could have harbored much animosity towards the pervasive gun culture environment he was raised in. Whatever motivated him to take his own mother down along with those kids, teachers and the principal remains to be seen. The computer forensics arm of the investigation no doubt will shed some light on that in the coming days.
That's a moot point. The element of surprise - sm
[ In Reply To ..]after planning the attack on his victims is no different than a terrorist planning to do that same thing.
If we're going to live in denial that America doesn't have terrorism in its country (by our own home-grown kids), then I don't see both sides agreeing to much of anything.
I'm curious: Just how many people must be shot to death by a nut case who wanted to kill those kids and teachers, and also the one who killed his own MOTHER.
Multiple deaths by one perpetrator hiding until he found his audience and the perfect plan will continue to happen in the Land of the Free.
Count me in on that, bootstraps. - Dumb me down, Scottie! nm
[ In Reply To ..]nm
You dont need to worry about the target shooters - but the nutcase with ANY weapon !! nm
[ In Reply To ..]nm
Yes, exactly. - LeonaG
[ In Reply To ..]I don't think it is possible to prevent this preemptively. Do you?
We could psychologically examine everyone who wants to buy a gun or other deadly weapon, providing they meet whatever other criteria are legal. People don't always remain sane, though, do they? Fine today, then schizophrenic next year.
There is the matter of cost. One cannot put a price on human life - and I'm not trying to, at all - but cost is a real-world consideration in these types of policies.
It seems like gun examinations would put a big strain on the mental health system, too. We don't have an excess of psychiatrists with little else to do, do we?
Do nothing and maintain status quo. - NOT an option. nm
[ In Reply To ..].
But do what? That is the question. I am willing to hear realistic ideas. - I made a suggestion myself
[ In Reply To ..]Which is improvement in the background check system.
But it CAN kill people right? and varmints, of course - bootstraps
[ In Reply To ..]Maybe varmints are how this potentially mentally disturbed young man defined children.
Who the heck cares if you have to wait 2 seconds to kill the next human, especially when you have hundreds more rounds in your pocket?. The gun has massacare potential.
Can't believe anyone would defend this weapon as something anyone in American can own.
EVERY modern gun has "massacre potential." - LeonaG
[ In Reply To ..]That is what I have been trying to explain, to deaf ears. There was nothing special or more deadly about this particular gun compared to other modern easily-available legal guns.
Not everyone in the U.S. lives in town. Some people need to protect livestock from 4-legged predators. The AR-15 is a fine weapon for that purpose. Some people enjoy target shooting as a hobby; they use guns for that (of course). Shooting skeet. Hunting. Collecting different types of weapons - which my dad did, and he was also a target shooter, using a historic gun that *was* originally made for killing people - the M1 Garand.
I welcome correction, but... - sm
[ In Reply To ..]I don't think anyone here is saying they can't understand gun ownership - whether that is their personal choice or not. But something is going very wrong here if we are statistically more similar to the third world, rather than the industrialized word, in gun crime. Certainly, trying to do a better job of keeping high-powered firearms out of the wrong hands would be a good start.
Look up the murder rates in Central and South America - they dwarf ours. - LeonaG
[ In Reply To ..]And that is not to make light of our murder rate at all. I would like our murder rate to be zero.
No "high-powered" firearms? What does "high-powered" mean, exactly, in this context? All firearms that I am aware of can propel a bullet with enough force to kill someone.
For your edification, I have included the wiki link on murder rates by country. Ours is higher than some other countries, and enormously lower than MANY others. You can sort the list by rate or country - scroll down for the big list.
In the U.S., the intentional homicide rate is roughly 4.2 per 100,000. In Honduras, it is over 90 per 100,000. There are a whole lot of countries in between, including a bunch that are popular vacation spots. (!)
Ah, the race to the bottom argument. - Typical of
[ In Reply To ..]mind-numbing gun culture myopia.
Thanks for the ad hominem! Try again! - LeonaG
[ In Reply To ..]n/t
Ridiculing emotion when the nation is grieving this loss. - Nice touch, and every bit as
[ In Reply To ..]convincing as arguments that seek to separate means from motives and promote the everything-except-guns-kills-people vestigial flap you are trying to hawk.
I have never said that nor even implied it. - LeonaG
[ In Reply To ..]Put words in mouth much?
oh look - sm
[ In Reply To ..]here's the data on global firearm-related death rates (the link you provided on intentional homicide is not the same thing).
I was talking about homicide. n/t - LeonaG
[ In Reply To ..]..
Nope. Most of Third World much worse. - nimrod
[ In Reply To ..]Homicides by country, seen it before. What comparison between 5 or 6, and 30, 50, 80? I don't get it.
I was speaking of gun crime, not homicides by country. - sm
[ In Reply To ..]That aside, I don't understand your post.
Hate to break this to ya, but casual throw-downs such as - "sport, Olympic games, hobby, etc" and
[ In Reply To ..]trying to wow everyone with such intimate and superior knowledge about guns with not so much as a mention or acknowledgement of the immense scope of suffering behind the realities such TRUTHS Mayor Bloomberg alluded to today are just not all that impressive. In case you missed that while you were out on the shooting range today, the mayor talked about the potential 48,000 deaths by firearms that would occur over the course of Obama's second term in the absence of effective gun control reform....more than were killed in the Viet Nam war. Not sure where he is getting those numbers, which sound like a conservative estimate to me, since 32,000 such deaths were reported for 2010 and fourfold of that number would be much higher. So far, nothing is being said about the other violent crimes that guns facilitate, such as rape and robbery, but I suspect that won't last for long.
Let me be clear here. I am not the one who needs schooling on gun use. It is not a prerequisite to being "qualified" to discuss the politics of gun control. In fact, the less I know about guns, the better. My focus is where it needs to be....on the profound loss and high price we all pay for "sport, games and hobbies."
You, on the other hand, could use a crash course on gun violence and its results before you try to understand what is going on in the country at the moment. You are so busy pontificating, you fail to realize that those 20 children and 6 teachers and principal have now put faces, names, and life stories on those sterile stats, something I seriously doubt your impressive guns expertise is going to make disappear. These are our CHILDREN we are talking about now. It's PERSONAL. This type of high-brow approach to "arguing" your case will only provide more fuel to fire this debate, while you enjoy your hobby and choose to grossly underestimate the ANGER that is sweeping across the country.
One last thing. Get a clue. It's the guns that are scary, not the political rhetoric that surrounds the gun control reform issue.
Bloomberg's fear-mongering isn't truth. - LeonaG
[ In Reply To ..]It is absolute speculation.
The AWB ended in 2004, iirc. Violent crime (including murder) has been trending downward, nationwide. Link below. We are roughly at levels last seen in those halcyon Ozzie-and-Harriet 1960s, according to the FBI. Strangely enough, it has become easier in the past decade or so for citizens to get concealed carry permits (whereas previously they were VERY hard or impossible to get). While anti-gun people expected additional carnage on the streets, that has not happened.
There are 80 million gun owners in this country, and about 200-300 million guns. I would expect MUCH more violent crime and MANY more murders from just those numbers, since we in the U.S. have so many gun owners and guns. But our homicide numbers per capita are dwarfed by those in Central and South America, and also by South Africa (which is generally considered to be First World).
So it appears quite possible that it is not merely the availability of guns that drives murder rates.
When people are posting in here that the gun in question had "military capabilities" or was "built to kill" or is an "assault weapon," then yes, you are going to get argument from many, many gun owners based on the untruths and fear-mongering inherent in those words. When gun owners themselves are repeatedly insulted and mischaracterized as a group, you are going to get an argument about that, too. Clearly, with 80 million of us, with many guns in the U.S., the majority of us are not nutsos but law-abiding citizens who enjoy various legal hobbies and uses for our guns. The fact that you mock those hobbies and uses only means that you are using a form of ad hominem.
I am well aware of who was just murdered. Every day in the U.S., on average, more people numbers-wise than the schoolchildren in Connecticut are homicide victims. They do not seem to strike a chord with the general public. I find that quite sad. ALL of them are to be mourned.
None of them should be used for a political agenda.
Yes, as I posted, the number is questionable in light of - the well documented 32,000 from 2010.
[ In Reply To ..]Lectures on gun owners, arguments against a more sensible approach to GC, and tiresome veiled accusations about exploitation of those kids are falling on deaf ears, but make a great case in support of willful ignorance. Your persistence tells me that you are painfully aware of just how thin the ice is you are skating on. The power of the gun lobby rests on mighty shaky ground, and their days of calling all the shots, at least where assault weapons are concerned, are numbered.
I have been discussing *homicides.* Not deaths. - LeonaG
[ In Reply To ..]Move the goalposts much? lol. Right on cue, the sockpuppets have switched to deaths caused by firearm, which I am well aware is a higher number, naturally. I have been discussing homicides.
Why include Bloomberg's speculation, then? Oh, yes, to fear-monger and to appeal to emotion yet again.
Nobody in here that I have read yet has made a suggestion about a *doable* form of gun control that would have prevented the mass murder in CT. I would be DELIGHTED to read and rationally discuss such - no sarcasm.
There ARE problems with reporting systems that relate to background checks, which nobody has mentioned yet because it seems that nobody is interested in finding workable solutions. Some appear to be on here solely to make fun of gun owners and engage in fallacious argument.
There has been a lot of hand-wringing, and a lot of pretty meaningless phrases have been tossed out like "made to kill" and "high-powered" and "military capabilities" by people who seem to have absolutely no knowledge about guns. I have asked for definitions for several of those, and corrected what I see as the misuse of some. Again, what is "high-powered" as relates to this discussion and how does it matter? Are "low-powered" guns okay? Can you name some of each? Are you referring to caliber, fps, what?
How do you know that? - .
[ In Reply To ..]"Nobody in here that I have read yet has made a suggestion about a *doable* form of gun control that would have prevented the mass murder in CT. I would be DELIGHTED to read and rationally discuss such - no sarcasm."
When was the rifle bought by the mother, before or after the assault rifle ban in 2004? That might have prevented it.
There are other things in retrospect that could have prevented this.
Please reveal your magic ball.
Which only goes to show what a shallow understanding - you have about
[ In Reply To ..]the shape and direction this national debate is going to take. You are ill prepared to enlist as a defensive force in war on guns that looms just over the horizon and are not in charge of how many different directions THOSE assaults are going to be coming from. Clue: Gun violence is not just confined to murders and homicide. All forms of firearms deaths COUNT in this debate and are about to undergo microscopic examination. It's about time, more than long overdue.
Oh dear. Once again. - LeonaG
[ In Reply To ..]Of course, all firearms death count. I never said they didn't. Are you going to continue to put words in my mouth?
I was, however, discussing one portion of firearm deaths - firearm homicides - since we had been discussing the mass murder in CT. Most of that was firearm homicide, though, yes, 1 was a firearm suicide.
Again, this thread is cancelled due to lack of interest. - Feel free to take the entire floor for yourself.
[ In Reply To ..].
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Shooter Identified! James HodgkinsonJun 14, 2017
Congress Shooting Live Updates: Man Asked About Republicans Or Democrats During Alexandria Baseball Practice Update: 10:51 a.m. EDT—Multiple reports have surfaced Wednesday identifying the man suspected of opening fire at a Republican Congressional baseball practice Wednesday, injuring at least four people. The suspected gunman was identified as James Hodgkinson of Illinois, according to reports from both The Washington Post and NBC News. Am ...
NYT Tipped Off Shooter To GOP Practice Field. Jun 15, 2017
were shot during baseball practice on Wednesday morning. Scalise was shot in the hip and tried to drag himself off the field after he was shot. The shooter, James T. Hodgkinson was a Bernie supporter who was obsessed with Trump-Russia conspiracy theories. He is now dead. The New York Times tipped off the GOP shooter on the GOP baseball practice field in an April article. “When members of Congress practice in the early mornings in an Alexandrea, Va., public park for their Congressio ...
Looks As If It's In Now. Trump Won The PopularNov 14, 2016
vote too.Time to stop the riots. The people have spoken. https://70news.wordpress.com/2016/11/12/final-election-2016-numbers-trump-won-both-popular-62-9-m-62-7-m-and-electoral-college-vote-306-232-hey-change-org-scrap-your-loony-petition-now/ ...
Yea! Independent Theater Owners Were Heros Yesterday....smDec 26, 2014
when they agreed to show "The Interview". It turned out to be one big Christmas party in small theaters across America. Score one for small business owners! ...
Gerald Loughner (Gabby Gifford's Shooter) Got Nov 08, 2012
7 life with no chance for parole plus 140 years. He pleaded guilty to 19 charges including attempted assination of a government official. Guess he won't be shooting anyone else. Glad they came down hard on him. ...
Isn't Anyone Outraged Over The Ft. Hood Shooter Still Receiving His Salary?Aug 07, 2013
Who was the idiot who decided this was a workplace incident instead of terrorism? He's collecting $7,000 a month until he is found guilty, yet our wounded and dead get NOTHING, not even a medal for bravery. It's disgusting. I think he wants the death penalty so he can have his 72 virgins, but I don't think we should accomodate him. Let him rot in military prison. The government has spent four years and $5 million to guarantee Hasan is given an airtight trial that concludes with ...
Shooter Inside U.S. Navy Yard, Building 197 In D.C.Sep 16, 2013
"Several" killed but not confirmed, 10 wounded. Shooter is contained in building and injured somehow, but not in custody. One report stated there were 2 shooters, but also not confirmed. ...