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health care idea

Posted: Dec 3, 2009

Perhaps they should link it directly to Social Security. make the plan optional, but if you decided against participation in the reform plan, you are automatically dropped from future Social Security payments. If you are so dead certain that health care reform is socialism, you can make your stand by not taking social security.

;

what? - cj

[ In Reply To ..]
I hope you are kidding. I have paid into Social Security for 50'some years now, and since I was self employed for over 20 of those years and my husband has been self employed for 15, we have paid in quite bit. I want my money back! I could easily have put it in savings for myself and be a lot better off. The two, health care reform and social security, and not in any way related. Not supporting the current health care reform proposal should in no way ever, ever, ever interfere with my social security. Paying into social security is one of the biggest government rip offs we face today as it is. Any idea of interrupting my payment is criminal pure and simple. Get lost!

are you saying you are willing - sirensung

[ In Reply To ..]
to tolerate the socialism of social security since you paid in it but you are unwilling to allow other Americans to join a health care alternative to insurance companies with obscene profits? I'm not lost.

Social Security - cj

[ In Reply To ..]
I have no choice on Social Security, do I? I said it was the biggest govt rip off there is, so given a choice, no I wouldn't tolerate it either. But there is no choice. It is a done deal. We still have choices in this health care debate. I am not unwilling to "allow other Americans to join a health care alternative" I simply fear that soon there will not be an alternative but that a govt run program will be the only thing available to anyone. I just don't get what you all expect. No industry can survive without profit making. Are you willing to work for free? I am not. we all work to get paid, and I doubt that if most employers offered you or others on this board a big raise and year end bonus that many would be likely to turn it down. Govt needs to keep out of private industry. Govt is NOT a business.

you do have a choice - sirensung

[ In Reply To ..]
Don't take your SS benefits. Make a stand. Are you aware of the struggles of the elderly before SS? People were skired then SS would be a disaster but it sure seemed to have improved the lives of the elderly. You cannot be against something because it "might" do something like impact the insurance companies. the future is too tricky to predict. Industry and profits - surely you've heard Ins CEOs salaries - millions. For what? pushing paper? being the intermediary between dr and patient? We need a way to stop the insurance companies reign of terror and alternative health plan is the free market way to go about it. Or else we could just pass a zillion new laws to control them. I would think you would like the market solution better.

There is no choice. One is required to pay into SS. - Sheeples

[ In Reply To ..]
Eliminate the Social Security tax, make it optional, and then you definitely have a point.

conervsely... - cj

[ In Reply To ..]
If you think I can't be against something because of what it "might" do, how can you be for something because it "might" do something? You are right. the future is too hard to predict. that also applies to those who think this will be an improvement. you also do not know how it will turn out. Personally, my uncomfortable feelings about it far outweigh any good feeling I may have from it. Like it or not, I have the right to that opinion. And it is an opinion shared by a good percentage of the population.

Indeed - sirensung

[ In Reply To ..]
you do have a right to an opinion but I was pointing out that very few are willing to stand up for the principles they so loudly support (freedom from socialism!!) when it comes to THEIR social security. As far as "might do something" - the plan is designed to cover uninsured people and it WILL. that is very different from dithering about such and such will happen and then that will make such and such go down/up and then blah blah blah. You may be selfish enough to deny fellow human beings medical care but at least be thankful your forebearers cared enough to provide you SOCIALIZED security for your old age. Finally, an opinion shared by a good percentage does not mean anything - take a look at photos of teabaggers and see if there are any faces in there that suggest keenintelligence. Progress comes with change, not stupor.

seriously. - cj

[ In Reply To ..]
I seriously do not understand this concept. How would I be taking a stand by refusing to collect social security? I was forced to pay in. I want something back. how is that socialist? being forced to pay in and then getting nothing back while my contribution is distributed to others, now that would be socialistic. And no, actually there will be still be millions of uninsured Americans. I am not denying medical care to anyone, nor would I ever advocate for such. I just don't like a lot of what is in the current proposal and think there is a lot more work to be done before we have an acceptable proposal. And the "teabagger" comment tells me a lot, like you would prefer to insult than to consider anyone's opinion other than yours. This was simply a segment of the population concerned for the future of their country. That was most definitely not stupor. It was a demonstration of their concerns. And you bet your butt there were many, many keenly intelligent people there.

I guess this is a passionate topic for you. - Sheeples

[ In Reply To ..]
First of all, Social Security was not due to our "forebearers." That doesn't matter anyway.

Your argument is about the "choice" we have to not take the Social Security funds we have paid into throughout the past 50 years.

I'll try to put it in perspective. How would you feel about paying property taxes but having to pay for private schools for your children - no choice. The funds you paid via your property tax would go to other counties for public schools, but due to zoning boundaries, your children could not attend. So your "choice" would be to homeschool or pay for private schooling for those less fortunate than you.

Also, here is an address you can use to donate (tax-free) to the Fed. Government - Sheeples

[ In Reply To ..]

http://www.fms.treas.gov/faq/moretopics_gifts.html

Gifts to the United States Government

How do I make a contribution to the U.S. government?

Citizens who wish to make a general donation to the U.S. government may send contributions to a specific account called "Gifts to the United States." This account was established in 1843 to accept gifts, such as bequests, from individuals wishing to express their patriotism to the United States. Money deposited into this account is for general use by the federal government and can be available for budget needs. These contributions are considered an unconditional gift to the government. Financial gifts can be made by check or money order payable to the United States Treasury and mailed to the address below.

Gifts to the United States
U.S. Department of the Treasury
Credit Accounting Branch
3700 East-West Highway, Room 622D
Hyattsville, MD 20782

Any tax-related questions regarding these contributions should be directed to the Internal Revenue Service at (800) 829-1040.

how bout - sirensung

[ In Reply To ..]
the insurance companies liquidate their CEOs mansions and pay me back the 35 years of premiums I have paid to them since I did not use it? It is my RIGHT to get it back. Rights! Rights! No facts, just rights.

you forget one thing - cj

[ In Reply To ..]
You did not HAVE to pay that. you made the choice to. It's a totally different thing. While I personally can't see why someone would choose to be uninsured if they can buy insurance, many people do choose not to pay it. No right to get it back when it was your own decision to pay it. That is a fact.

strain at the gnat - singsong

[ In Reply To ..]
You forgot one thing . . . social security was a program created to help struggling Americans. We each contribute with the POSSIBILITY of receiving help when we are older. It is not a personal saving accounts. This is the exact same thing as the health ins reform. The exact same thing. Watch out for that camel.

you miss the point entirely - cj

[ In Reply To ..]
The point was you had the choice. With social security I did not have the choice. And you premise is wrong anyway. Check the history of social security because you don't know what you are talking about here.

Further, it is not in any way the same. Choice versus mandatory - how can you call that the same?

a little history - see msg

[ In Reply To ..]

The SS Act was not designed with a POSSIBILITY of getting something back. It was designed for the security of income in retirement. Thus, it's name of Security. This is from the govt's own society security history website. Note the sentence at the end.

In the United States, the Great Depression of the 1930s triggered a crisis in the nation’s economic life. It was against this backdrop that the Social Security Act emerged.

THE SOCIAL SECURITY ACT

On June 8, 1934, President Franklin D. Roosevelt, in a message to the Congress, announced his intention to provide a program for Social Security. Subsequently, the President created by Executive Order the Committee on Economic Security, which was composed of Frances Perkins, Secretary of Labor, Chairwoman; Henry Morgenthau, Jr., Secretary of the Treasury; Henry A. Wallace, Secretary of Agriculture; Homer S. Cummings, Attorney General; and Harry L. Hopkins, Federal Emergency Relief Administrator. The committee was instructed to study the entire problem of economic security and to make recommendations that would serve as the basis for legislative consideration by Frances Perkins the Congress. In early January 1935, the Committee made its report to the President, and on January 17 the President introduced the report to both Houses of Congress for simultaneous consideration. Each House passed its own version, but eventually the differences were resolved and the Social Security Act was signed into law on August 14, 1935. In addition to several provisions for the general welfare, the new Act created a social insurance program designed to pay retired workers age 65 or older a continuing income.

try collecting - sinT

[ In Reply To ..]
it if you die before 65. You are either purposefully or ligitimately being obtuse.

what? - cj

[ In Reply To ..]
The post, and the act, specifically said "for retired workers age 65 or older." Anyway, there are many people who do collect before age 65. Survivor benefits are paid out to younger people, and SSI and SSD are paid to disabled persons. Those provisions were added later. I don't think I understand your post.

the previous post - sinT

[ In Reply To ..]
disputed my use of the word "possibility" of collecting SS after you had contributed. My reply was try to collect your rightful benefits if you die before age 65 (as in hit by a bus, heart attack, starvation, lack of medical care?) Thank you for your history lessons. I have completed my comments.

You are getting the two things mixed up - anon

[ In Reply To ..]
Paying health care premiums is an option.

Paying social security is not.

no she's not - u are - bm

[ In Reply To ..]
probably u should read the whole conversation and see the context. It is perfectly clear to me what she is saying and you too are intentionally or unintentionally trying to move the topic to your off point rather than address the issue of Soc Sec as a predecessor of health reform

I just read all the posts - AGAIN - anon

[ In Reply To ..]
You don't get your health care premiums back because it is not a mandatory program. You pay into it to receive health care with the understanding you are not going to get your money back.

Social security is mandatory. It's a government run program and they take it from you whether you say yes or no. It's a program set up so that when you retire you received a check from them depending on what you've paid in and how long you have worked. And because it's a government run program look at what they've done to it. So the government is ruining it and it's about to go bankrupt and you still want government to take over health care and do the same to that....boy are you a glutton for punishment. LOL

Health care is not a program that pays you back like SS. Therefore you cannot even make an argument. They are two different things.

I think u should probably read the whole conversation, because my response was to what the poster wrote. And isn't that the purpose of someone posting...to share their point of view.

Social security is not and should not be a predecessor of health reform. They are two different things. Like one post said, what's next you get social security if you vote democrat and if you don't you forfeit it.

Social security and health care are to different issues. Getting SS has nothing to do with which health insurance company you decide to choose.

And as the other post said too, SS is not a reward. You don't reward people who convert to socialism by giving them SS while you penalize people who don't by taking away theirs.

Again - social security is mandatory, paying health premiums is not. Two different things.

Try this again - Medicare

[ In Reply To ..]
Try your argument again substituting the word Medicare for the words Social Security.

Funny because I know people who are getting - see message

[ In Reply To ..]
social security but not Medicare. I agree with that poster that you can't even separate the two. Why don't you just put food stamps with car payments. They are not the same thing. What don't you understand about that. My grandparents get their SS check, but they do not get Medicare. My dad also gets his ss check but not Medicare. Social security is not health care. This assenine idea that if you don't sign up for a socialized health care program you should not get your social security benefits you've paid your entire life into is just that...assenine. Health care is not social security. Medicare is not social security. Stop trying to punish people who want to keep America strong and have free enterprise and not have the government control every aspect of our lives. That is not what this country was founded on, and if you don't like it there are other countries who policies would suit your liking.

Again....Medicare.....Social Security.... NOT the same thing.

Who said they - were?

[ In Reply To ..]
Certainly not the poster you replied to.

The post I replied to said - - see message

[ In Reply To ..]
"Try your argument again substituting the word Medicare for the words Social Security."

Did I misunderstand something? If so, then I'm wrong and will stop here. To me I understood it that the poster was saying Medicare and social security are the same thing (substitute one for the other).

If that's not what the poster was saying then I'm wrong and I take back my previous post.

Here is what was - meant

[ In Reply To ..]
Perhaps they should link it directly to Medicare. Make the plan optional, but if you decide against participation in the reform plan, you are automatically dropped from future Medicare eligibility. If you are so dead certain that health care reform is socialism, you can make your stand by not participating in Medicare.

Okay - that I agree with - Thanks for clarifying

[ In Reply To ..]
I thought she meant you don't get your social security if you don't join.

I guess I did misunderstand. Thanks for the clarification.

succinct and certainly not asinine nm - midryder

[ In Reply To ..]
nm

When you can come up with a smarter... - nnnnnn

[ In Reply To ..]
argument against people who do not want to be taxed our of their homes than that they look stupid, please let us know. I don't know what you look like, but your argument sure does not suggest keen intelligence.

when you come up with - singsung

[ In Reply To ..]
an actual topic other than insult . . . oh well, no, just keep on doing your thing.

I guess you think saying that.... - nnnnnn

[ In Reply To ..]
"teabaggers" look stupid was a nice thing to say? Certainly not an insult, huh?...oh well, just keep doing your thing.

and are you aware of the history - cj

[ In Reply To ..]
or the intent of social security? Perhaps you might read up on it.

Why do you believe health care insurance should be a - private industry?

[ In Reply To ..]
x

Five days and no response. I'd like to know the answer to that, as well. (sm) - Nikki

[ In Reply To ..]
This is probably the most important question that can be asked regarding this issue, it is the crux of this entire matter, and yet not one person has responded.

Oh, well, thanks for asking! :-)

And you stick with it and don't get lost, sirensung - because this is an interesting

[ In Reply To ..]
discussion and I want to see how far they will rationalze their reasoning.

now isn't it every 4.5 workers support 1 SS benefit recipent - ???

[ In Reply To ..]
I AM SCREWED if they don't fix the problem. I am 24.... yeah... yeah...yeah that is considered young, but I feel so old.... Anyways, I hope they don't attack the SS benefits. I heard that by the time I get to take it out that SS might not be there. Please don't come up with crazy ideas to take SS away!!! I am still crossing my fingers it will be there 40 years from now!!!

the right wants to do away with SS - sinT

[ In Reply To ..]
not the progressives. The right wants you to independently invest your money in the stock market. We saw how well that works.

preferable for me... - cj

[ In Reply To ..]
My return on my personal investments will be much greater than on my contributions to social security. And for younger persons than myself, their return on their social security MANDATORY contributions could be zero. I have been contributing to social security for close to 50 years and my husband has for over 50 years. What do you think our rate of return will be? It is negative numbers. Our personal investments, while they did lose last year, are rebounding and still show a greater than 10% return total. So I will take personal responsibility any day over government control. Had I been allowed to invest that social security money myself, I would reap a much greater benefit than letting the government steal it from me. It is not, and should not be, my problem if the next guy is not wise to prepare for their retirement years, and i should not be penalized for it.

girl, you are - sinT

[ In Reply To ..]
all heart and all knowing. God bless.

It worked out pretty well for the bankers. Big bonuses again. (nm) - Nikki

[ In Reply To ..]
:-(

Well then - anon

[ In Reply To ..]
1. This is not a good plan.

2. With your plan what they should then do is if people don't want to participate, they should get everything they've put into social security back to them since they first began working and paying into it. Give them a check for every penny they've paid into it and let them invest it into a service that will help them for their retirement.

Health care and social security are two different issues. Your trying to penalized people if they don't want to participate in a socialized health plan. There are good health care companies out there that provide a good service and 80 to 85% of the people are happy with them. So leave their health plans and leave their social security alone.

The way it should work is if you want to join this socialized govt-run health care plan you should forfeit your social security.

I agree with this poster too. The passion play works both ways. - Sheeples

[ In Reply To ..]
You also have a choice to help fund the Federal Government's goals by refusing to accept your Social Security benefits.

My response - very much disagree with you - just me/hmmm

[ In Reply To ..]
Health care is not social security. Why would you have the two linked together? Unless you're point is to punish people who don't want to join a socialized health plan. If that's the case then put the shoe on the other foot. Anyone who is for socialized health care then you are dropped from future social security payments and lose everything you've put in.

Receiving social security is not a "reward". You don't reward people for joining a socialized health care plan with the promise to receive social security.

SS is a program consisting of retirement, disability and survivor benefits and to quality you have to pay into the system. It has nothing to do with what health insurance company you pick. Additionally, there are a lot of people that if the health care passes and people join the socialized govt-run plan, some of those people will not have paid into social security but now you think they should get money that other people have contributed to but now don't get because they don't join in socialism?

Your statement is about the same as saying everyone who votes democrat should receive social security and those who vote republican, independent, green or any other party should not get social security and forfeit everything they have paid into.

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