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Guns and intrinsic danger. Or, "guns don't kill, people kill"

Posted: Dec 15, 2012

If I were at a party, left the adults and put a nerf ball in the familiy room where the children were playing, nobody'd think anything of it.

If I put a loaded gun in there, every adult would rush to get it before the children did. THAT IS BECAUSE GUNS ARE INTRINSICALLY DANGEROUS. The only thing that changed was the presence of a gun, but no one would claim it was actually the children who were dangerous.

Suicides by gun are much more likely to result in death than ANY of the other usual methods. That reality reflects guns' greater intrinsic danger. Among advanced nations we have by far the highest rate of children killing other children (20% of child deaths). One guess what weapon is most used (aside from dropping babies on their heads)?

As someone else pointed out, someone in China recently went to a school and stabbed 22 children and their teacher with a knife. None died. It would have been very different if he had used a gun.

Whether suicide or murder, when a perpetrator uses other weapons, the death rate drops dramatically because they are intrinsically less dangerous than guns. In the case of suicides, intervention is proven very successful in preventing a second attempt, making failed first attempts something we really need to push to achieve.

For those who do survive attacks, inflicted by self or others, guns also typically leave much more permanent damage in those prevented deaths--reflecting their greater intrinsic danger. I'm remembering, as I always will, a 22-year-old whose hand moved as he pulled the trigger to end his depression. I transcribed the ER report describing how his entire face below his eyes was gone--nose, mouth, tongue, jaw. He was "awake, alert, and oriented." If he'd slit his wrists, he'd have been left with a couple of white lines.

;

Yep, especially assault weapons. Turns out it the RIFLE was what Lanza used - to kill the 7 kids

[ In Reply To ..]
the medical examiner who's doing the press conference autopsied. Gun is designed for military and law enforcement purposes, not sport, hunting or self defense. Surprise, surprise.

All the children were killed by the semi-automatic...sm - VTMT

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assault rifle capable of firing a total of 60 rounds (30 x 2) without reloading. He sprayed Each of the seven children the medical examiner autopsied had between three and eleven bullet wounds each. These are children that are 6 year olds and weighed around 50 pounds, height less than 4 feet, first graders.

What do we do, nothing? We have been doing nothing for far too long. When our innocent babies are being killed it is time to take such deadly guns away.

Did our forefathers envision that we would evolve to arms more sophisticated and deadly than the musket when they penned the second ammendment?

Very good point - Fanatical Hypocrite

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At the time of the creation of this country, the right to bear arms was in reference to slow, hard to load, generally single bullet and extremely inaccurate firearms that served better against wild animals and as self-defense. It was impossible to go on a rampage with one. I doubt the third amendment would have been so small had they known what horrors were to come.

The law has to keep up with technology. The founding fathers said nothing about banning human cloning, but like so much they didn't see the future threat. The times will continue to change and we have to keep up. Incidents like this are becoming too frequent (ever is too frequent, but this is becoming regular).

I find the defense of assault rifle ownership baffling. It's one of those issues I just don't get. If you hunt with them, you're sadistic. If you think you're going to be attacked by dozens or hundreds of assailants, you're paranoid. So I think in reality they fall into two categories: 1) Crazies. 2) Vanity. To my mind, there simply are no legitimate reasons.

Here, here! Everyone has a righ to own a musket - wheres_my_job

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that's it. I'll let you have 2 muskets if you don't have a criminal record.

Lets face it, if this guy didnt have that gun - he would have

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Used a bomb to kill a large amount of people.

Hurt people hurt people, and obviously he was really hurt. He would have found a way.

Skill in constructing explosives is rare - Fanatical Hypocrite

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Don't know if this kid would have known how, but explosives take skill to make and operate. Guns are just aim and pull the trigger. Even reloading is a moot point with 60 bullet capacity.

With an explosive you have to know how to make it, get the parts, not blow yourself up during construction, transport or delivery, and then detonate it at the proper time. When we were kids my cousin, who was a very smart guy (though like all kids dumb enough to play with things they shouldn't), used to make small explosives, but they wouldn't have been fatal even at point blank. To make a bomb capable of blowing up a school or even a single classroom takes materials most kids don't have access to.

Like guns, you shouldn't leave your kids bomb making tools or high grade chemical explosives.

Whether this particular kid could do that I can't say because not much solid information is out yet on him or his mother. Nonetheless, most kids use guns because they have access and anyone can.

Of course, you're right in saying that hurt people hurt people. How very true. The number one defense against violence is good parents, good home environment and a supportive community. Corny as it is, there's absolutely no substitute for love.

Not really - have you searched on the internet - sm

[ In Reply To ..]
I agree with the poster you replied to. If it wasn't one way he would have done it a different way.

If you can search the internet you can find directions on how to do anything. Not all explosives are intricate. My understanding is that some idjit posts things so that a child can put things together.

I agree with your last paragraph 100%.

Right. Shooters also first research, obtain ingredients from various places, - learn how to assemble, and only THEN go kill.nm

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x

You can't know that, and what FanHyp says about the difficulties - of bombing versus the ease of shooting is true.nm

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x

So what are the stats on how many Americans are killed by - homemade bombs every year?

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Let's face it. All these pointless distractions, such as signs posted in the front yard addressed to hypothetical robbers (REALLY?), regurg from tiresome Fox talking points memos ("guns don't kill" yada-yada-yada), basement bomb builders and the like, can only mean one thing. Certain partisans are prepared to face absolutely nothing whatsoever even remotely associated with the problems our country so obviously has with GUNS. Not a single smidgen of constructive dialog in sight, just business as usual.

You don't know that - wheres_my_job

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And if there wasn't already a string of well-publicized mass shootings, he might not have gotten the idea either.

No, they didn't envision it - wheres_my_job

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Gun policy in this country is crazy.

A semi-auto does not "spray." That's a full-auto. - LeonaG

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Gee whiz, are there people on this board being paid by the gun banners? And everyone else just takes what they say at face value without doing any research?

Sheesh.

you know what a semi-auto does - so knock it off

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Does a semi-auto kill people? nm - case closed

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x

So do single-actions. - Your point is? n/t

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..

I think that kind of response is disingenuous - sm

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with a single action, the victims had a chance. The principal would have had the chance to dodge a bullet and tackle him. A child could have run. With the knowledge of firearms you display, it's disingenous to act oblivious.

was the gun put in the family room loaded? - cause...

[ In Reply To ..]
If not, then why would it be dangerous? If so, then one could argue that BULLETS are DANGEROUS, not guns!

Let me just say this... It is the person putting the bullets in the gun that is dangerous. Not the gun. Not the bullets. THE PERSON!

I always thought the "guns don't kill people" - was ridiculous too...

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Yes, people do kill people in all kinds of ways including knives, poison, pillows, cars, etc. But there is only one reason for a person to have a weapon of mass destruction, aka automatic rifle or pistol, other than to kill lots and lots of people in a very short time, that is their sole function. If some folks like the way such guns look hanging over their mantles, they can buy scale models which look exactly like the real thing without the possibility of mayhem.

While you raise a good point - Fanatical Hypocrite

[ In Reply To ..]
I see both sides of the argument. A gun without a person isn't dangerous. However, a person without a gun is significantly less dangerous in the same way that North Korea's army is dangerous, but a nuclear North Korea would be far worse.

If I come at you with a knife, I have to get awfully close to you. If it's just my fists, I'll have to catch you and you've got a fair chance. If I have a gun and you take off running, I just have to shoot you in the back. If you have a weapon, I just have to shoot before you can close the distance.

It's a logical fallacy to say that having a gun doesn't make you more dangerous.

Now I don't believe in banning all firearms. I'd like to get a pistol myself. My beliefs are basically that assault rifles should be illegal. I don't want to hear from anyone about how you need to hunt deer with an assault rifle. Just because you're a hillbilly doesn't mean we have to respect your cultural traditions. You shouldn't be able to carry weapons into private businesses or government buildings. Psychological evaluations for anyone who wants to get a gun. No weapons for the mentally ill (i.e. schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, combat PTSD, etc.) If you're a parent and you want a gun it needs to have a non-key lock (memorized hard to guess combination or fingerprint lock.) No scatter shot rifles either.

People will keep on killing people after we limit guns, but at least the rest of us will have a fighting chance.

TY. A voice of reason. nm - VTMT

[ In Reply To ..]
.

What if there is no person involved? A loaded gun's lying - in a field and children come across it? sm

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A heroic police officer was speeding to a call to rescue of a drowning woman when a boulder rolled onto the road in front of him, killing him and throwing his gun far away into a field.

A couple of weeks later the children are running across the field and come across it. Loaded, safety off. The gun's not dangerous?

This is what is meant by INTRINSIC DANGER.

why are children in a field unattended - and what makes you think

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that the very first thing they would do is pick up the gun and kill themselves with it? or somebody else? Not realistic at all.

Children DO run in fields unattended. - and why shouldn't they?

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I don't understand why that requires supervision...

with children being abducted left and right... - even from their front yards

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these days, I would never let my children, play in a field unsupervised. It is a definite breeding ground for unscrupulous pediphiles who wish to take advantage of these situations. Kids need to be supervised everywhere these days!

it's an illustration of intrinsic danger - nm nm nm

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Right - so let's CONTROL which persons get guns!!!! - wheres_my_job

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follow your own logic to the end.

so go after the gun manufacturers then.... - people cannot buy what

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is not offered for sale! end of discussion!

Not exactly. Most people would not agree to a - complete ban on guns. nm

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x

No, but people who feel they need a gun should only - be allowed pistols or hunting rifles.

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If NRA had their way, everyone in America would have SCUD missle launchers in their backyards.

"Assault weapon" is a meaningless term. - LeonaG

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There are "hunting rifles" that are more powerful than the AR-15, and handguns that will (probably) put a bigger hole in you.

Somebody on this board needs to define this term "assault weapon." It is essentially meaningless. Any gun you're assaulted with is the "assault weapon" that was used. Maybe a knife was the "assault weapon."

This board is full of intelligent people who perform a difficult job that requires constant learning. Yet no one is trying to learn anything about guns so they can make informed decisions. They're just repeating the fear-mongering. Disappointing.

So you want to argue semantics? - bottom line

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So from now on we will be sure to give the NAME BRAND rather than the generic.

ANY WEAPON that has the ability to shoot multiple rounds within minutes should be illegal.

And as expensive and cumbersome as it may be, ordering guns or ammunition through the internet should be illegal.

Fear mongering. You are funny.

"Multiple rounds within MINUTES"? Oh my. - LeonaG

[ In Reply To ..]
You're kidding, right?

Even a single-action gun has the ability to shoot multiple rounds within MINUTES. For that matter, even an old muzzleloader, in experienced hands.

For the most part, ordering guns online is only legal when the guns are shipped to a licensed dealer, to be picked up by the buyer. The buyer then must pass the background check.

There is an exception for certain historic/antique weapons. These types of guns have not generally been used in mass shootings.

If owners are restricted to that type, that's the type that will be used in mass shootings going forward. A single-action gun can be fired pretty quickly.

Then you can panic and ban those, and on and on.

You can take away my right to vote, but don't take my gun! - Fox Watcher - nm

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Why? I don't understand. - nm

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.

Conservative T-Party states demand more documentation to vote - than to own a gun. nm

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Oh please - they do not. This kind of hatred goes way past - reasonable - oh wait - sm

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Who knows, maybe you do have the Tea party's manual on how much documentation they want you to have to own a gun.

Sorry I jumped to conclusions. You can post the tea parties guidelines on what documentation they require you to have to own a gun since you know. I'll wait.

Your wait is over. See well documented "8 things" post - rife with oodles of links.

[ In Reply To ..]
Enjoy.

Why not? If you really want to kill someone, there are - other ways to do so without bullets.

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Heck, you can kill a person just by throwing a rock at them if you're a good shot.

Gun tragedies are often the result of opportunity for shooters. You have to wonder if the shooter's mom hadn't had a a veritable arsenal in the house, if he may have found some other, less lethal way of venting his anger that day.

Had the CT shooter had no access to high-capacity firepower, and instead walked into that school armed with rocks, the chances are very good that no one would have died.

The most tragic part of this incident is - me

[ In Reply To ..]
that nobody every followed up on the fact that this guy probably had mental illness. If those neighbors noticed him acting oddly, why did they remain silent about it? I'm not for taking away people's guns, but for God's sake, keep them locked up for safety. Background check or not, would not matter in this case, since the guns belonged to the mother but were accessible to the son. A no-win situation either way.

Maybe something could have been done, but the vast majority of - the many hostile troubled people don't kill.

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We can't lock "them up for safety." They're all over the place. They're not crazy, just often angry and prone to blaming others for their problems. They're so common, you undoubtedly have some in your life, friends of friends, a couple coworkers at the last place you worked in house, a checker at your market, server at your favorite restaurant, a few in your general neighborhood, maybe someone in your family, etc.

That said, over 90% reportedly announce to others that they are going to do something. We need to educate ourselves to take expressions of hostility seriously. Last year at a party someone insisted we should "nuke" the Middle East--and meant it. Eagerness for mass murder. I would have been glad to have him examined but didn't call the FBI since his business of building golf courses didn't seem to give him access to ICBMs. Now, if he'd expressed the same wish for the deaths of the Assad family down the street I'd have been on the phone first thing the next morning.

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