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It's very fashionable now to dislike or even hate America in this

Posted: May 21, 2015

and Internet, ignorant people criticizing the country and its people all the time. But it’s a sad state of affairs when Americans are attacking fellow Americans . A nation which is so divided cannot stand for long. We have corrupt leaders, Fast and Furious, IRS scandal, Clinton Foundation, illegal immigration, email scandal, illegal arms being shipped from Benghazi to Syria. Will any reporter address this? Do Americans care? ;

Any attack current is seen as not credible unless it comes - from NBC, CBS, ABC, etc.,

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so I don't think it's going to change.

Where can an individual turn for truth? What news source can - be relied upon? I have to read

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sources outside of the US to get the news.

Hate - Patriot

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Surely you jest! Those are the very "news" shows the libs own that have contributed to the demise of this once great country. They DON'T report the truth and skew facts and protect NObama, Bubba, and now Bubba's wife, among other libs. Their ratings are in the tank. Ask Brian Williams and Tom Brokaw. Nothing will change until people that consider themselves libs wake up, start thinking, do the right thing, stop expecting instant gratification at the cost of others and/or tax payers, and keep their hands in their own pockets.

Unity and trust are difficult to restore until we take responsibility for past mistakes - Julia Sugarbaker

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I agree with maybe 1 thing in that list - but at the same time, I could point to much, much worse crimes by politicians who then waved the American flag over them and dared us to to utter a word of dissent, lest we be called unpatriotic or "muslim terrorist lovers", "hating America" or "communists."

So with that in mind, I fully support your right to express your opinions 100%, though I disagree with 99% of them, and that is where we can find common ground - the allowance of all perspectives to be heard, even those in dissent - because that is what this country has historically been about :)

But just as a small sample of those even worse crimes, would be imperialism in the form of wasting billions in taxpayer money to help support into power corrupt, ruthless and particularly violent dictators like the Shah of Iran, Pinochet, Noriega, and even Saddam Hussein, under the false pretenses of "freedom fighting" communism, resulting in the torture and loss of millions of innocent civilian lives - all done so that the wealthiest 1% of this country could profit and the US could gain control through imperialism.

Then, even less sensibly, we spent more money to depose them all, because once in power, they bucked off US control/imperialism, as anyone with two brains cells could've predicted, especially if the persons we supported into power are drug lords and/or psychopaths from the start.

We are not popular with the rest of the world - and we have mostly ourselves to blame - and we've taken virtually no responsibility for it, towards other nations or our own.

International relationships, and especially intra-national relationships (especially in a two-party system) are very much like marriage, IMO. If one lies, cheats and steals doesn't take responsibility for it, pretends it didn't happen and demands others pretend along with them it didn't happen, get over it and move on - no, that doesn't work.

Healing and unity only come after the liars/cheaters/thieves take responsibility and we see a concerted effort to change. Trust must be earned back, after it's been broken - it's not given freely, anymore.
Until then, the house will probably remain divided, yes, and is at risk of party "marriage" failure, IMO.

A leader must also in the present take responsibility and not blame - past leaders, The buck stops here.

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Otherwise you never have to take responsibility, you can always blame someone in the past, and without the perspective of the situation at the time.

Like using the A-bomb, the Civil War, we have the luxury of hindsight.

True, deflection and rehashing are unproductive. But they happen less when leaders take personal - responsibility for mistakes -JS

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And I agree, just because one party broke trust doesn't mean the other is a saint.

My point is, if our leaders took more responsibility for their actions, there'd be less deflection and rehashing.

For example, though I think LBJ was one of the worst presidents in history, the one thing I admired was him publicly telling the American people that HE had failed and made poor decisions in Vietnam and would not run for re-election.

It makes it much easier to move past when responsibility is taken.

When it's not, then asking people to pretend like it didn't happen, sweep it under the rug, get over it, etc. is very "dysfunctional family", IMO.

Sorry, I love this country, but I'm not an enabler, either.

But the assumption is that something is a mistake when maybe it was the - right decision at the time. nm

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nm

But we know it's wrong now. That's exactly what I mean, excuse vs. taking responsibility - Julia Sugarbaker

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Like I said, I love this country, but I'm not an enabler. Feel free to continue to excuse/enable poor choices if that is preferred. I won't be joining those that are, though, I'm sorry.

I don't think one needs to apologize for making a decision that - was right at the time, hindsight

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can be used as a political tool and no politician will want to make a decision based on the fear that his/her successor will use it as such.

I disagree. I think those who lost loved ones as result of "mistake" wars deserve apology - Julia Sugarbaker (nm)

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nm

Many people felt that way about the Civil War, and even the - American Revolution. xx

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xx

I disagree that it is the same, the Revolutionary - and Civil wars were American wars

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Sure, many people are against war in general, whether conscientious objector or pacifist, but those wars us Americans had a real stake in and they were fought in our own country.

We were attacked in WWII, and that dragged us into the war and really was the last time war seemed to be a necessary evil to combat the evil of Hitler and fascism.

I cannot think of a war since WWII that has been fought by the US, supposedly spreading Democracy, which we directly had a stake in here in the US, except for loss of life of our poor soldiers.

After WWII it seems war became a business and it's still going strong, but ask any young soldier today to elucidate what he is fighting for and would he be able to do it, does he even know?

I'm not saying some military presence isn't important in some places in the world, but I really think the knee jerk reaction some politicians have as far as rushing into war is not what we used to be about, and it's not what we as a country should be about.

I think our founding fathers would be shocked to know how much of our budget we spend on military in this country (57%), and it's a crying shame.

Do you think Obama should apologize to the mothers of the - Americans who lost their sons in

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Benghazi?

Do you want an apology for political reasons?

Benghazi? I thought we agreed deflection and rehashing were unproductive? But to answer the question - Yes (but see links) Julia Sugarbaker

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Perhaps it's been forgotten that both Obama and Hillary attended the actual funeral of those 4 men and both condemned the terrorist acts, and Hillary said, "I take responsibility" during her testimony and that she was committed to correcting them.

Should they both have gone further than condolences and publicly apologized to the 4 victims' mothers for security mistakes?

Yes

However, let us not forget that at the time, a bipartisan investigation was going on. Any apology can and would be misconstrued by the right as implication of guilt in wrongful action, so any attorney would advise them not to until an investigation was completed. And lo and behold,that bipartisan House investigation, in a Republican-led HOP, revealed no wrongdoing in either Clinton or Obama's actions.

So essentially, Hillary took responsibility for something an actual investigation proved she wasn't even responsible for, just because she felt she could've done more.

Should they apologize publicly now that the investigation is complete for the 4 lost lives?

Yes.

Would that get twisted into apologizing for wrongdoing by the right?

Yes.

For the record, I personally think there are things with Benghazi we shouldn't ever know or they might risk national security, just as I think are possible about Hillary's emails. Just like the DEA infiltrates drug intels, don't think the CIA and special ops don't do the same with terrorists - we don't know this wasn't the case and that something just went horribly wrong in Benghazi as far as recognition. If this WAS the case, you want Obama and Hillary to blow these ops' cover just so we know all the answers?

No, I disagree.

However, in the case of just the emails, could Hillary end a lot of speculation by just saying it would threaten national security by turning those over or reveal to much of her private life to the public?

Yes, and it is a valid concern that she isn't.

However, better to stay mum and let people gossip than say too much and risk security compromise further.

In fact, what if that IS the case? She'd be noble, then, not guilty.

Regardless, here is the video of them both at the funeral:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K10ioQdEv80

Here's the House's report on the Benghazi investigation concluding no wrongdoing on either the part of Obama or Clinton:

http://intelligence.house.gov/sites
/intelligence.house.gov/files/documents/Benghazi%20Report.pdf

And here is Hillary's testimony on Benghazi where she states she "takes responsibilty" anyway:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/world-jan-june13-clinton_01-23/

I'm noticing this constant refrain about Iraq, when in reality Obama - was handed a stable Iraq

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and then dropped the reigns and walked away. Obama and Hillary told everyone Arab Spring was a great idea, and that getting rid of Gaddafi was wonderful. Look at Egypt and Libya now.

Obama succeeded in turning another country over to the Islamic Brotherhood.

Obama "dropped the reins" but it wasn't stable, etc. That's 2x I've agreed - Any concessions or more deflection?JS

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Or am I to assume that as I've just shown in links and my own concessions on 2 points, now, that responsibility-taking and concession-making only comes from anyone left of the far right, and that the far right is only capable of deflection instead?

See, it's funny to me that this thread began by complaining about wanting more unity in this country, but those complaining never seem to bend on a single point or offer concessions themselves, just deflection. Why is that?

The left wants Bush to apologize so they can go after him and Rumsfeld for - war crimes, the UN is pushing this

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too. That's why this is going to continue. Remember all the Democrats who saw the same intel and agreed?

Have you noticed those guys never travel - outside the US though?

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It's hardly the "left" that wants to "go after" them - many countries would prosecute them for war crimes and these guys are too chicken to even leave the country and stand up for their principles or the supposed legality if challenged. They can get away with it in this country because Fox and other propaganda machines.

I personally would just settle for Cheney shutting his big fat mouth about everything, or really anything. Do NOT want to hear from that jerk again. He is an abhorrent politician and really almost singlehandedly pushed the propaganda and misinformation of the "intelligence" which led the US into Iraq.

Follow the money to Halliburton.

You mean like an apology tour? - Obama's already done that.

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nm

I think in their case an apology tour - might turn into a trial tour

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Or with any luck an imprisonment in an international prison tour! That's what they deserve, especially Cheney.

It is not the U.S. responsibility to maintain - countries in the Middle East

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They are their own sovereign nations and, in the case of Iraq, the U.S. helped to dispose of Hussein and his party, helped to establish a government that might survive. There are too many factions to determine who will rule and it is not our place to stay there forever. Let the Middle East take care of the Middle East for a while. This is not our responsibility.

I think someone can say knowing what I know now, I might have made - a different decision, but apologizing

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is not necessary.

Did FDR apologize for Japanese interment camps? - Or Germans in detention centers?xx

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xx

No, but GHW Bush did, as well as Clinton - sm

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http://www.colostate.edu/Orgs/TuleLake/apology1.jpg

https://japaneseinternmentmemories.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/apology.png

I did not that Clinton did and thought it was strange at the time. - The Japanese would have kept

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on fighting. We ended the war. He had no right to apologize for Truman.

Strange for Clinton, but not for Bush? - sm

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We interned AMERICANS of Japanese ancestry. Those Americans were not going to go on fighting. We ended the war by dropping nuclear BOMBS on Japan.

FDR authorized the internment of Japanese Americans. Not Truman. America takes responsibility for its errors. You say Clinton "had no right" to apologize - but what about George HW Bush?

I said I remember when Clinton did that, if Bush - did then it's strange too, I just personally

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don't remember that. I haven't had cable TV for years.

Anyway, the point remains. There have been apologies. - As for TV? I haven't had it in years, either.

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Congress authorized apology and restitution paid over 10 years. - Civil Liberties Act of 1988

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As the President of the United States, Bill Clinton was obligated by law to send out the checks and the apology letters.

Ronald Reagan signed it into law in 1988 to be paid out over 10 years.

As far as the atomic bombs, Bill Clinton said Truman did the right thing using them and never apologized for that, just issued the letter of apology along with the restitution to those sent to the internment camps.

I'm guessing that the same people who criticize Clinton will praise Saint Ronnie for it. Clinton was just following through with something started during the Reagan Administration, just like NAFTA and so many other things.

FDR died in office while the internment camps were still open. - Dead people can't apologize. - nm

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.

A few years ago friends got mad and yelled at me because I said I was against the Iraq war - Still wish it had not happened

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I didn't lose those friends, but they were so furious with me that they yelled at me when I just made a quiet comment that I wish we hadn't gone to war with Iraq. That's my opinion. It's still my opinion. I didn't say that others couldn't have their opinions, but for a few years it was unacceptable to have that opinion.

Same thing happened to me when I said I didn't vote for - Obama, and this was from my

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family.

I think when people say they hate a country, it's really they - hate the govt. I don't hate Iranians,

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it's their govt that I fear. They've said they want to wipe all Jews from the face of the earth. I take that seriously. But it's not the average Iranian citizen.

Our politicians are a reflection of the country, so no I don't - think many Americans care,

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I just read an article on how the protests in Ferguson were organized and many of them were being paid to do it. Now, I guess ACORN (or whatever they've change their name to now), hasn't paid and there's a hashtag called Cut the Checks, demanding to be paid.

We have Hillary, who was fired during Watergate from her boss, - Jerry Zeifman, because "she

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was a liar. she was an unethical, dishonest lawyer. She conspired to violate the Constitution, the rules of the House, the rules of the committee and the rules of confidentiality.”

He was the chief counsel to the House Judiciary Committee during the Watergate hearings. She wanted to deny Nixon a lawyer.

So in 2015, she is running for president. No I don't think Americans care.

More right wing BS. Sooo afraid of Hillary! nm - Google is your friend, Fox not so much

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.

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