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How did this country turn into a country without borders? Reagan and Bush debate 1980

Posted: Jul 13, 2015

We could go on pretending that the history of the United States and everything bad came into existence on January 20, 2009, when Obama took the oath of office, thereby nullifying everything that had theretofore happened in American history before Obama became president... OR.... novel idea, we could watch, listen, and learn from history and actual facts. The Governor of California, Ronald Reagan, believed in an open door policy in North America and free trade with unwavering support. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcTPwHY-LpY His Vice President who succeeded him at the end of Reagan's two terms believed the same. This is the impetus for the North American Free Trade Agreement, NAFTA, and how it came about. Reagan being from California and Bush living in Texas, neither of them ever, nor do the children of George H.W. Bush, believe in closed borders. Listen to these two men here in their own words circa 1980 at the link below. Have a nice day. :) ;

Blaming O's failures on Reagan. I've noticed this theme - lately. xx

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xx

Read 1984. Orwell laid it all out how it's done in an - entertaining novel. How to change

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the meaning of words, rewrite history and take things out of context, present certain dogma as truth, and get citizens to turn against citizens (ultimately the ending).

I regret to inform that "1984" was a work of fiction. - sm

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It was not a history book and not a how-to manual but pure fiction. Everything is not a conspiracy.

Nice read, however. LOL

"1984" was not pure fiction. It, like many others, - was an allegory intended to convey a message.

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A great deal of fiction isn't MERE fiction - or "pure fiction", as you put it.

"To Kill A Mockingbird", "Atlas Shrugged", "Uncle Tom's Cabin" - the list goes on at on. They are only "fiction" at the merely superficial level of analysis.

Add Animal Farm to that list, even The Wizard of Oz - was intended to show you

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don't need government, you need to rely on yourself.

I liked Farenheit 541 and C. S. Lewis stuff. - Rudyard Kipling also wrote allegories.

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I thought of 541 with the whole flag fiasco.

I must say as time as gone by it seems to me that the scary/creepy parts of some of these books are coming true. I freaks me out sometimes.

I liked Animal Farm, basically 1984 with talking animals. - It shows how socialism is fundamentally

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flawed because those in power give special treatment to the ones they favor. "All animals are equal but some are more equal than others."

Many moons ago we read Chaucer in school, - he used fabliaux as analogies,

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the were medieval stories but fun.

Orwell's Politics and the English Language is timeless. - He was quick to draw a line

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between the use of language and the ability to think.

"A mass of Latin words falls upon the facts like soft snow, blurring the outline and covering up all the details." That summarizes political speech in a nutshell.

I like Mark Twain but find him too sarcastic for me.

No, sorry........ allegorical fiction is still fiction, and 1984 is dystopian fiction. - sm

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What did the author say was his motivation for writing his political works of fiction? In his own words:

"The Spanish war and other events in 1936-37 turned the scale and thereafter I knew where I stood. Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it." -- George Orwell

You may have heard of democratic socialism, right? People Before Profit.

Now please tell me more about how y'all think 1984 is really real because the guy who wrote it was a member of the ILP, was an activist left-wing intellectual, and a democratic socialist, a brilliant man, in my humble opinion. Google Eric Arthur Blair.

I'll wait.

By the end of his life he was no longer socialist and - anti-communist. He knew all too

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well where the Labour's policies would lead to. He was involved in a tax avoidance scheme after the success of his last two books, 1984 and Animal Farm. He was sick and wanted to keep his money for his wife and 6-YO son.

Ironic isn't it? For socialism to work, you need other people's money. He wanted to keep his money for his family.

Incorrect but not the first time the righties claim Orwell was against socialism. - sm

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I am fully aware that misguided righties incorrectly assume Eric Blair was a righty because he wrote against totalitarianism and Marxism/communism, since righties incorrectly assume and have been pushing the propaganda for years now that communism, fascism, and socialism are all the same thing and lump them all in the same category, but they're not remotely the same thing and never have been. Democratic socialism and the totalitarianism type Marxist–Leninist socialism are two totally different ways of governing; there is nothing democratic about totalitarianism.

Orwell and his wife adopted a son in June 1944, but she died in March 1945 during surgery, before their adopted son had even turned 1 year old. Orwell raised his adopted son as a single father, albeit with the help of his family, until he was too ill and had to be totally hospitalized and spent the last 4 months of his life in the hospital with TB, remarrying in the hospital in October 1949 and dying 3 months later in January 1950 when his adopted son was 5 years old.

Eric Blair, pen name George Orwell, had written 1984 in 1948 largely in and out of hospitals for long periods of time while he was sick with TB at the end of his life, and editing and publishing were rushed because of that fact.

In his own words regarding 1984:

"My novel Nineteen Eighty-Four is not intended as an attack on socialism, or on the British Labor party, but as a show-up of the perversions to which a centralized economy is liable, and which have already been partly realized in Communism and fascism. I do not believe that the kind of society I describe necessarily will arrive, but I believe (allowing of course for the fact that the book is a satire) that something resembling it could arrive. I believe also that totalitarian ideas have taken root in the minds of intellectuals everywhere, and I have tried to draw these ideas out to their logical consequences. The scene of the book is laid in Britain in order to emphasize that the English-speaking races are not innately better than anyone else and that totalitarianism, if not fought against, could triumph anywhere."

Socialism, communism, fascism..... all different things. Fascism is a merging of corporate and government interests, when corporations have taken over the government, also called an Oligarchy because the wealthy control the entire country. Communism is the requirement that private property is not allowed, and no one owns anything because everything is owned by the government. Socialism is where people are directly involved in the production of goods and services where the workers are the owners of the businesses, the government is not. Orwell was a democratic socialist and he was until the day he died.

Not sure how many times it has to be reiterated to those who lump communism, fascism, and socialism all in the same category that this is incorrect, but those are all very different things.

So, you do realize you just presented the evidence - in opposition to your position, right?

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This is like a football player who intercepts the football and then runs the wrong way to score a touchdown for the opposing team. Bwahahahahahahahaha!

You mean, in 2015 people actually think "1984" is not "mere fiction" and real? - sm

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Righties! Animal Farm and 1984 are allegory and political satire and also both works of dystopian fiction. Allegorical fiction is still fiction. You can argue that it's not "mere fiction," but that is semantics.

We lefties are well aware that righties think communism, fascism, and socialism are the exact same thing. In this posters words: "Bwahahahahahahahaha!"

Orwell was a democratic socialist himself. What did he say about 1984? In his own words:

"My novel Nineteen Eighty-Four is not intended as an attack on socialism, or on the British Labor party, but as a show-up of the perversions to which a centralized economy is liable, and which have already been partly realized in Communism and fascism. I do not believe that the kind of society I describe necessarily will arrive, but I believe (allowing of course for the fact that the book is a satire) that something resembling it could arrive. I believe also that totalitarian ideas have taken root in the minds of intellectuals everywhere, and I have tried to draw these ideas out to their logical consequences. The scene of the book is laid in Britain in order to emphasize that the English-speaking races are not innately better than anyone else and that totalitarianism, if not fought against, could triumph anywhere."

Oh, no! Orwell himself calls 1984 "a satire." Must I now define "satire"? It still dystopian fiction....... and no matter how many times you insist it is not "mere fiction," allegorical fiction is still fiction, and 2 + 2 will never equal 5.

But nice try with the football totally unrelated fictional argument, I will give you that!

I did learn from that book that watch out because whenever the big brother advocates are - quiet they are planning something

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and another attack on your freedom.

Probably guns this time.

Ask some poor soul who's been paralyzed by a - stray bullet about "freedom".

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+

No, mischaracterizing the posts won't change U.S. history. - sm

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But nice try!

Wouldn't it just be great if everyone would just pretend like history didn't exist and blame Obama for everything that happened since the day he was sworn in? Thanks, Obama!

It's a nice delusion that conservatives entertain and gets a lot of lip service in right-wing media and on right-wing fringe conspiracy websites, but everyone knows that delusion and truth are two different things. Obviously, things don't happen in a vacuum. Obama became president and picked up where others left off: Reagan, Bush-41, Clinton, Bush-43, and many before those. Pretending like any president came into office and started from scratch is a fool's errand, regardless of the fool's political affiliation, but it sure doesn't stop the fools from trying.

It's because Scott Walker is invoking Ronald Reagan - so the left has to lie about him

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for a generation who wasn't even born when he was president.

Everyone is invoking Ronald Reagan, as usual. Nothing new. - State the obvious

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Ronald Reagan would be embarrassed by today's GOP who are acting in direct opposition to what he believed on quite a few issues, but that certainly won't stop any of them from invoking Saint Ronald Reagan......... DRINK! LOL.

I blame Ted Kennedy and LBJ and the 1965 Immigration Reform Act. - The Communists were for it because

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it destabilized Americans. Before that we had quotas. The middle class grew as a result of low immigration without the swamp of cheap labor. Those who did immigrate assimilated and embraced American culture.

There difference now is that Obama is flooding the country and opening the borders. The illegals are not embracing out culture, they are out to destroy it with the help of the Democrat party, who by the advertises in Central America for illegals to come to the USA!

They get all kind of freebies, too.

That's O's plan. Flood the country with dependents who - don't embrace American culture

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and will continually vote Democrat. Fundamental transformation.

That's also the push to destroy Southern culture. They think the South is traditionally Christian and conservative.

Ted Kennedy tried to undermine Reagan by going behind - his back to the KGB, trying to

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undermine him.

The press tried to undermine Reagan (Sam Donaldson). - The press protects Obama, who

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wouldn't know how to deal with hard hitting questions. The liberal press actually protects him.

Is that you Rush Limbaugh? Right-wing propaganda media strikes again. - sm

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This lie began to circulate as damage control when 47 Senators signed a letter designed to undercut a nuclear deal with Iran, as if whining about this made up line of total rubbish actually could undercut the utter stupidity of the conservative idiots who signed the letter. LOL

The continued dumbing down of Americans brought to you by Rush Limbaugh.

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/rush-limbaugh/

True -- 0 (0%)
Mostly True -- 2 (6%)
Half True -- 3 (9%)
Mostly False -- 9 (28%)
False -- 10 (31%)
Pants on Fire -- 8 (25%)

Just google Ted Kennedy undermine Reagan, there's plenty - plenty of info on that Benedict Arrnold

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xxx

Found it........ right next to 9/11 was an inside job. - Success!

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I hear there's rumors on the Internets.

I tried. I even posted a link. Have a nice day. - NM

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NM

Welcome to the Brave New World, where nothing is - taken seriously unless is fits

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a political agenda.

This is from PolitiFake, I'll pass. Inability to tell fact - from fiction. nm

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nm

It's from a May 14, 1983 KGB document, concerning a confidential - offer to Soviet leadership by Ted

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Kennedy, the target: President Ronald Reagan.

Reagan wanted to build a defense systems to protect the US - from a nuclear attack, Ted K called

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it "Star Wars" to give it a bad name, but it backfired. One of the first things Bill Clinton did was get rid of the program. It sure worked in Israel!

America has no defense against now against an attack.

As a parent this does not make me feel very secure in - for the future. We take for granted

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that we will be protected.

We were a heartbeat away from it during the - Cuban missle crisis, & it didnt happen.

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I'm not too worried anymore. Even if it does happen, it'd probably be a quicker way to go than withering slowly away in a hospice bed somewhere.

Well, your "facts" are really, really wrong on so many levels. - sm

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So what do you think the Patriot Missile exactly is? You may have heard of it: Phased Array Tracking Radar to Intercept On Target....... PATRIOT. That missile?

The truth is that the scope of Reagan's SDI program was changed by Bush-41: "Now, with remarkable technological advances like the Patriot missile, we can defend against ballistic missile attacks aimed at innocent civilians. Looking forward, I have directed that the SDI [Strategic Defense Initiative] program be refocused on providing protection from limited ballistic missile strikes, whatever their source. Let us pursue an SDI program that can deal with any future threat to the United States, to our forces overseas, and to our friends and allies." -- George H.W. Bush, State of the Union Address, January 29, 1991

Bush-41 refocused SDI to become Global Protection against Limited Strikes (GPALS)

I think the poster might be confusing the Strategic Defense Initiative a.k.a. Star Wars with the Superconducting Super Collider that was cancelled by Congress in 1993 and totally unrelated to missile defense. Clinton tried to prevent the cancellation of the SSC by asking Congress to continue to fund it, but Congress refused and cancelled it.

Anyone who thinks America has no defense against an attack but Israel does is sorely mistaken. Where do you think they invent that stuff anyway? The Boeing Company, United States of America. You may have heard of it? Israel's Arrow missile defense system is a joint project of the United States Missile Defense Agency through Boeing Company and Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI).......... and guess who pays for it? ........ You guessed it: The United States taxpayers do jointly with Israel.

Now, let's talk Standard Missile-3 interceptor, another United States invention made by Raytheon.... No, let's don't. Google it yourself or read the link.

Class dismissed.

NAFTA that was signed into law by Clinton had politicians - changing it to favor their state,

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and Clinton put this countries interest first.

Comparing NAFTA then and now is apples and oranges. But I know it's an attempt at protecting Obama.

I miss Reagan. He was the first president I ever voted for. - He loved this country. He wasn't perfect

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but who is.

I don't think our leaders love this country as it was founded anymore.

He loved the idea of this country but was woefully - prepared for the political side

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He should have stayed a grampa on the sidelines eating apple pie on the checkered tablecloth. Instead he was manipulated by the Republican guard, just as the Bushes after him.

He was the first I voted for also, but I woke up/grew up---haven't voted Republican since.

My spidey senses just went up here. - Hmmm

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x

Reagan handled the "political side" brilliantly. - Perhaps better than any other President has.

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nm.

The acting part, perhaps, but he was manipulated - by the political animals

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xx

How's that "tricke-down economics" part - working for you lately?

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vf

Drip, drip, drip--oh wait that's not even mone - it's sweat

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the money is all drying up.

He was a puppet. - ....

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