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This is great


Posted: Dec 30, 2009

nm

;

Not just great - Excellent! - see messages

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I understand there are about 11 or so states that are planning to sue over the healthcare issue.

They need their butts voted out for sure, but they also need to go to jail for the criminal activities they are running.

When did the congress people that we elected to represent us stop working (representing) us and only take care of themselves.

All of congress should be ashamed of themselves and some of them need to be jailed.

Awesome!!!!! - Just bought myself a bumper sticker too!!

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I am afraid though that whoever takes over in 2010 (NOT OBAMA)will have no choice but to raise taxes and then it will make Republicans look bad because what Obama has done!

Of course not Obama. He's in office - until 2012. NM

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/

It is SO frustrating that people consider it - their right

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to be so irresponsible as to choose not to carry health insurance and yet they still get services. We should just let people have what they want along with the consequences of their choices. The problem would be solved if we could just let natural consequences work. The bill should simply say that those who choose not to carry coverage, and cannot pay for whatever services they need in full before or at the time the services are rendered, should simply be denied services. Natural consequences. This would make the folks who are intelligent but stubborn be responsible, and would also let natural selection weed out some of the rampant "irresponsibility genes."

That would work for me - see message - anon

[ In Reply To ..]
I like your idea that if people don't carry coverage they should pay in full for services - works for me.

However, it is SO frustrating that people consider it their right to get free health coverage and that everyone else should have to pay. That's like saying people should get free groceries because after all they need to eat, so why not have everyone else pay more for their groceries so a few can get them for free.

It is irresponsible and will be the downfall of the country to force a health care bill that doesn't cover everyone, throws innocent people in jail if they refuse to carry health insurance, and makes everyone else pay more for their coverage so people they do not even know are covered. I cannot and should not be responsible for paying for other people's health coverage. I don't pay for their electricity bill, cable, food, etc, so why should I have to pay for their health coverage. That is unconstitutional. It is also very irresponsible of the government to take on a system they do not know how to run. The people who are going to suffer are the older people and people who have health conditions. It is irresponsible to now get a government bureaucrat involved in the care a patient has with his or her physician, now having to go through an un-trained in the medical field government bureaucrat to get approval for any procedure or care that is needed. Then on top of that now have to wait many months for procedures they need while waiting for some politician to approve it before they can get the care they need.

Health care is a choice NOT a right. I should not have to pay more money just so others can get it for free.

So yes, people should have the right to choose whether or not they want it, but just have to sign an agreement that they will either have to pay in full or be refused care. - works for me.

Thanks, Fellow Patriots! - Nobama

[ In Reply To ..]
Remember the cradle-to-grave mindset of the secular progressives. Anyone who falls prey to this is simply nuts!

The downfall of the - country?

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A little drama going on there doncha think? OMG, what if we end up like Germany!!!

My thoughts are that there should be universal healthcare that is managed by a nonprofit organization, but, those who do not want to participate should have the right to opt out, know they will not receive treatment if they cannot pay, and then they can go ahead and die and help purify the gene pool. Alas, this will never happen though because there will always be some liberal who thinks they deserve care for some crazy reason like "we should care for our fellow man" or something. Too bad everyone isn't a greedy, heartless conservative. Life would be so much more "simple."
No drama at all - just listen to the economists - anon
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And other people who know. They are the ones saying it, not me.

What if we end up like Germany? Excuse me, but we are headed that way.

I think more restrictions on the insurance companies, not a government run program that is going to force them out of business.

Lots of restrictions on the CEOs and execs (i.e. no million dollar bonuses), affordable coverage for ALL people, no restrictions of pre-existing conditions. No kicking people out if they do get sick and if they do they get fined millions. And if they want a government run program then all of congress and all politicians should be mandatory they join it and get the same quality of care they want to enslave us in.

You have got to be kidding me with this scare tactic of "greedy, heartless, conservative" bully-shiza. Don't even try that crap on me. The democrats have been in charge before and they never did anything towards heath care. NOTHING...NADA...ZIP. They are too interested in taking care of themselves, voting themselves pay raises in the middle of the night while Americans are losing their jobs. They are the greedy heartless politicians. And they fall on both sides of the fence. Labeling one side with a fear-mongering left-wing tactic will not work.
Okay, explain how Germany's - healthcare system
[ In Reply To ..]
is the downfall of their country, and please add a little more dramatic flare for extra points.

Oh, and while you're at it, try to disguise the fact that your real concern is possibly having to pay into something that you may not use in fear that someone else will get the benefit. The economy? LOL! You've already made yourself very clear. Your tactics aren't working.
Germany, and all of the other European countries with universal health care.... - AzRain
[ In Reply To ..]
spend a tiny percentage of their GDP on defense, which is one of the reasons they can afford to spend more of their GDP on health care and other social programs. Of course, they have the good old US of A coming to their rescue everytime they need military help, so they don't need a state-of-the-art military force. Who will protect the world when we no longer have that capability?

So you're in favor of American genocide. Nice. (sm) - Nikki

[ In Reply To ..]

"This would make the folks who are intelligent but stubborn be responsible, and would also let natural selection weed out some of the rampant "irresponsibility genes."


At least you're revealing yourself and probably a good percentage of posters on this board, as well.


I'd love to know how much YOU personally pay for health insurance, percentage-wise. I had stopped doing everything that "normal" people do for enjoyment, cut back to the very basics, but I still was forced to let mine expire once my monthly premiums exceeded 50% of my gross income. The problem is that the unregulated health insurance companies are making it almost impossible for people to afford health insurance, not because of some ridiculous "irresponsibility genes." I know a lot of middle class people who are uninsured for the same reason, and they are very responsible people. Their premiums got so high that when their premiums began to cost more than their mortgages, they also had no choice but to cancel it.


You should be careful while you're standing on your 50-foot pedestal because someday those premiums may be out of YOUR reach, as well, and when you fall, you're going to have injuries, but you just might not be able to afford health insurance. However, I don't expect someone who would like to let "natural selection" rule to understand this.


I hear that karma is sometimes rough.

Genocide? lol. Here we go again - you cannot argue with - them on their level

[ In Reply To ..]
Giving them a choice to keep their precious money knowing full well they will be denied treatment that they could have afforded to insure if they cannot pay for it can hardly be called genocide. Please let me finish this.....please.

How many people have you seen on this board say....."you cannot be denied treatment" in reference to being uninsured by choice? What a pathetic, irresponsible attitude to have. I'm merely saying we should take the option away.

Natural consequences.





So are you in favor of a public option to (sm) - Nikki
[ In Reply To ..]
enable "them" to afford health insurance?


You're right. You cannot argue with "them" on "their" level. I brought up the issue of monthly health insurance costs being higher than a MORTGAGE! It's the exorbitant rates that insurance companies charge that is the problem. Sure, you will find a minority of people who can afford it and refuse to purchase it.


As far as paying for health care in advance in a hospital setting, how does that work? How can a hospital bill for treatment that might require an inpatient stay plus tests, etc.? How can they know in advance what those costs will be?


Finally, according to Webster:


genoÃ?·cide (jenâ?²Ã?? sÃ?«dâ?²)


noun


the systematic killing of, or a program of action intended to destroy, a whole national or ethnic group
Etymology: < Gr genos, race, kind (see genus) + -cide: first applied to the attempted extermination of the Jews by Nazi Germany


When you suggest that people who share a supposed "irresponsibility GENE" be left untreated so that "natural selection" can "weed out" a certain group of people, genocide is the precise meaning for what you espouse, where you would let them die rather than receive potentially life-saving treatment. It's absolute genocide!


When insurance companies stop placing "profits over people" (as Colleen would so aptly say), THEN your plan may be applicable. Until then, like it or not, there are people who simply CANNOT AFFORD to pay 50% or more of their income to health insurance companies. If a choice has to be made, I'll choose paying my mortgage every time. Which would YOU choose?


People who work for larger companies get better insurance deals from their employers, who usually pay a larger percentage of the premium. It's small business owners who are stuck with junk plans that have high premiums, high deductibles and high co-pays. It's not a black and white situation.


Again, I'd like to know what percentage of your income goes to healthcare costs because you are very mistakenly suggesting that everyone can afford health insurance.


You didn't answer that nor did you even validate the fact that this is happening all over the country.


Not ALL people are irresponsible, as you claim.
There were supposed to be paragraphs in my post but (sm) - Nikki
[ In Reply To ..]
they didn't show up in my post, even after trying to edit it.

I apologize for that.
Wait a minute - how in the world can you possibly - consider giving someone
[ In Reply To ..]
a choice to pay for insurance or not genocide? I usually agree with you, but this genocide argument is absolutely ridiculous. If death is a consequence of someone's choice, how can that be genocide? If you choose to pay for a sky-diving lesson and you don't pull the cord in time, is that genocide by the person who flew the plane? The one who sold you the parachute? It's absolutely ridiculous. And...have you EVER heard of estimates?

All these people want is to retain their right to be uninsured, to know that they cannot be refused treatment whether they can pay or not, and to make absolutely sure that not one dime of their money will benefit anyone who is in a position where they had no choice (all of whom they put in a "lazy" category).

This is fine, their choice, EXCEPT the part where they use the rest of us by taking treatment they chose not to insure and now cannot pay for.
The poster referred to "natural selection" in "weeding out" an (sm) - Nikki
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entire group of people - a group that is growing daily - including people who cannot afford health insurance.

As I said, I know people who had to give up their health insurance when the premiums rose to levels that were higher than their mortgage payment!! When my own policy rose to more than 50% of my gross income - and after cutting back on every possible thing I could to keep paying for it - I had to cancel my policy. I WANT to pay for health insurance, but there isn't anything of substance out there that I can't afford.

People have been declaring bankruptcy for years now because they can't afford high deductibles, co-pays AND monthly premiums.

I'm talking about people who simply cannot afford to pay for it, and that group is now inclusive of members of the middle class.

In his/her post, he/she wrote regarding an "irresponsibility gene," "weeding out" and letting "natural selection" take over. If denying this specific group of people treatment results in death, then how is that NOT genocide, given Webster's definition which I provided?

The uninsured aren't completely comprised of people who REFUSE to purchase health insurance. It's increasingly a problem of those who can't AFFORD health insurance. I acknowledged that there is definitely a group that refuses to obtain health insurance, and, as oldtimer pointed out, the healthcare bill takes care of that situation.

People had better be careful about wanting to "weed out" a group of people who increasingly belong to the middle class, lest they themselves find someday that THEY'VE been "weeded out," as well.
You are trying to make a point that has no basis in - fact
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Natural selection is NOT genocide. You are completely missing the point and arguing a nonexistent issue.
Yes, I am, since there is no such thing as an (sm) - Nikki
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"irresponsibility gene."

My point is that lack of insurance is NOT always the result of someone being "irresponsible."

However, the affordability (or lack thereof) of health insurance is NOT a nonexistent issue, and this person would throw these people into the "irresponsible gene" pool and "weed" them out by "natural selection," i.e. refusing to treat them and possibly causing their deaths in the process.

There is a big difference between people who refuse to get health insurance and those who would love to have it but can't afford to pay for it.

Do you disagree that health insurance has simply become unaffordable to some people in this country?

As far as having a basis in fact, please check out this 2006 article, and you'll see that this is not a new problem in the USA.

http://www.urban.org/publications/411317.html
You know - you are so completely off - base
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on what I am saying that it's pointless to try and make you understand. Why do you think "irresponsibility gene" was in quotes? Or, did you even think about it? The whole thing is about people who choose not to be insured, so why are you suggesting that anything other than an irresponsible choice and the consequences thereof is the point of my posts? From what wording were you able to fabricate your argument?
If you were referring to only people who REFUSE to (sm) - Nikki
[ In Reply To ..]
get insurance but can afford to, then I agree with you.

If you're talking about those who cannot afford to get insurance, then I disagree with you.

I'm not sure WHO you're talking about, and it came across as everyone without insurance.

Regarding the wording, when you start talking about "weeding out" certain members of society, "irresponsibility genes," and "natural selection" regarding what happens to these people, THAT'S the wording that triggered my response.

Again, were you speaking of ONLY those who refuse versus those who would love to have health insurance but can't afford to? If you were speaking of only those who refuse, what do you propose for the people who simply can't afford exorbitant health insurance premiums? Should they be turned away, as well?

Besides, it's a moot point. As "oldtimer" pointed out, in the health reform bill people who refuse will be fined.
P.S. I have no idea how many people I am responding to here (sm) - Nikki
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since nobody is using any monikers.
Okay, now I ask you - go back and read the posts - all of them
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Where in any of them, no matter if it is more than one person or not, is there a suggestion that it is about anyone other than people who choose not to purchase insurance when they can well afford it? What a waste of time. Maybe you should look up the definition of the word choice also.
How can you tell the difference between (sm) - Nikki
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someone who refuses to buy it and someone who can't afford it?
What? - Say again?
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No system is perfect, but income guidelines for a start don't you think? Dependents vs. income etc.? Are you really serious about this question?
How does there being a fine make the point - moot?
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There should be no fine. These people should be allowed to suffer the natural consequences of their actions.

And, if a person makes a fully informed choice of their own free will and the result happens to be that they are "weeded out," how is that anyone's fault but their own? You seem to be suggesting that suicide is the same thing as genocide.
And what would those consequences be? (nm) - Nikki
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X
Again? - Okay
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Cannot pre-pay, or pay in full at time of service (estimate or actual cost), no treatment.

Also, before you go into it, it's already been stated that this could never happen because there are good people who have hearts and care for their fellow man. But, wouldn't it be nice if it were actually possible to let them hang themselves with that rope they want so badly?

The greed of some of these people makes me cringe.
Have you studied the healthcare reform bill?...sm - oldtimer
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People will no longer be able to be uninsured by choice.
healthcare deform bill - smarty pants
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It's a BILL OF GOODS! We'll ALL win the "stink bomb" if this passes!

Pelosi, Reid, etc. refuse to use the same thing. Many Republicans and Conservatives have been trying to allow their policy to be made available for ALL Americans! Call it pro-choice??!

Thank heavens there are some smart, informed people on this board.

On another note, and speaking of ins. cards (or any card), don't y'll just "love" those microscopic Group #s? Who do any of these companies think they're fooling? It doesn't matter if it's CS for your cell phone, gas, electric bills, etc., either!
Sorry, but I totally agree with Nikki's interpretation - Colleen
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of your post. That seems to be what you are suggesting.
Well, Nikki is wrong and so are you. You didn't have to - apologize though
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Some people are so kind-hearted they cannot conceive of letting people learn from their own mistakes.

In a nutshell, the posts are about letting people who can afford health care insurance but choose not to purchase it because they are afraid someone else will benefit, or for whatever reason, learn by natural consequences. I'm talking about the people who are screaming because they do not want their money to help anyone else, and they don't want to spend money on insurance taking a chance in order to save the money. Then, these same people show up at the ER, or have a sudden devastating illness and guess who ends up paying for them? We do. In other words, all I am saying is that they should only get what they pay for. They should not be able to take advantage of the rest of us with their greed and selfishness. Just let them be. Let them have what they want. Let them have their rope. I suspect that if faced with the certain consequence of getting no treatment if they couldn't pay in full at the time of service, the majority of them would go ahead and purchase insurance. Did you know these people are being figured into the statistics of the currently uninsured, and it is their own choice? I find this outrageous.

Nikki somehow got the idea I was talking about people who have no choice, people who cannot afford healthcare insurance. I have NO idea how she got that. There is not one word about anyone other than people who have a choice in those posts; but she misinterpreted and went off on a rampage. I'm still chuckling over her using the term "genocide." I know it isn't funny to get that confused and misinterpret so badly, but there is not one suggestion even close to genocide in those posts.

Nikki is defending the very people she disagrees with. She is defending those who do not want to help others. She misunderstood so badly it is almost funny. To suggest I was talking about genocide is saying that if someone makes a choice that leads to their demise, it is the result of a plot to get rid of them and everyone like them.

I firmly believe that those of us who can afford it should take care of those who cannot. I do not happen to believe in rescuing greedy selfish people from themselves. That's all, that's it. What is so difficult to understand about that? Just give them what they want along with allowing them the natural consequences, and the problem will take care of itself.
Thank you, and I apologize. (sm) - Nikki
[ In Reply To ..]

I appreciate your explaining this to Colleen. I wish you had explained it to me in the same manner.


I truly believed you were talking about everyone who doesn't have health insurance, and I asked repeatedly if you were including people who can't afford it in that group, but you never answered me.


I'm very touchy about this because I made the "choice" to drop my health insurance once I could no longer afford it. I honestly thought you were including people like me within that group, and I would love to have the opportunity to buy health insurance if I could find an affordable policy.


Again, I apologize for misinterpreting your post. By the way, I DO agree with you regarding the people who can afford to pay but refuse to purchase health insurance.

Ah Ha! To me when paying for insurance is going to - cause you to be unable to
[ In Reply To ..]
pay for basic necessities in order to be able to live, it's not a choice. That's such a basic definition to me that it didn't even occur to me that someone would think differently. Sorry I didn't make myself clear. A misunderstanding. If you knew me, you would have known exactly what I meant. I'll try to be more clear if I ever post here again.

Take care of yourself.
Well, for what it's worth, I hope you DO (sm) - Nikki
[ In Reply To ..]
keep posting, and I hope you get a moniker, as well, since it makes it easier to know "who's who" on the board.

I think another reason I misunderstood was because the thread began with a post about people who want to kill Obamacare, and I thought your post was in furtherance of that.

I really feel terrible about what I said to you, and hopefully I've learned a lesson here.

In any event, please keep posting. My hope is that someday, everyone in this nation will have the opportunity to be insured by an affordable non-profit source.

Again, I apologize and feel terrible!

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