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Guilty or not guilty?

Posted: Jul 2, 2013

Just curious as to what everyone else thinks

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Not guilty - nm

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nm

Guilty - nm

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x

Guilty--he was instructed to back off and wouldn't. - nm.

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Not guilty - nm

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x

Guilty. - nm

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*

Not guilty - nm

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x

Guilty - nm

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nm

Guilty. Textbook 2nd degree murder - by FL law definition.

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Murder with a depraved mind occurs when a person is killed, without any premedicated design, by an act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind showing no regard for human life.

Specific to this case, the jury was further instructed on elements of "imminently dangerous" and "depraved mind" as follows:

A "person of ordinary judgment" would know the act, or series of acts, "is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another";

The act is "done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent"; and

The act is "of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life.

As to the first point, gunshot wound to the mid chest at intermediate range, IMO, would qualify. Defense and GZ are attempting to downplay this by claims such as his statements made during the investigation that he did not realize his intermediate range gunshot had actually hit Trayvon and that he was "shocked" to receive the news that Trayvon had died. Guess he was too busy trying to restrain the corpse to notice he had had hit his mark. Also, Trayvon's condition at the scene in the aftermath, face down, hands folded in front of him, completely motionless, etc, might have been his first clue, but by then he must have been too preoccupied with his story to the police to give it much thought.

Point two as applied here, IMO, is satisfied under the ill will stipulation by statements he made prior to the confrontation and by his, shall we say, "zealous" approach to his Neighborhood Watch duties and "wannabe cop" behaviors outside that setting, indicating his predisposed mindset to view Trayvon's walk through the courtyard as a "suspicious" "suspect."

Indifference to human life, slam dunk. As the police have already pointed out to him, there are a NUMBER of things he could have done to diffuse, de-escalate and/or avoid the situation all together, like heeding instructions not to follow, calling 911 back with an address, waiting for police to show up, identifying himself as Neighborhood Watch and asking Trayvon (who despite being armed and trained in MMA, he claimed he FEARED) what he was doing in the courtyard.

http://www.richardhornsby.com/crimes/homicide/second-degree-murder.html

http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2012/04/george-zimmerman-arrested-for-2nd-degree-murder.html

Guilty - MGC

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A young life was cut off by an over-zealous neighborhood watch person who was told not to follow Martin.

You are SO wrong.... pathetic. No proof of - depraved mind...self defense... not guilty!! nm

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nm

Correction. Self-defense CLAIM, which is a function of credibility. - In that regard

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GZ is not faring all that well. For example, today we got incontrovertable evidence that GZ, who got an A in stand your ground class, told Hannity a big fat lie x2 on national television. Here's what it looked like:

When asked by Fox News' Sean Hannity "prior to this night, this incident, had you even heard stand your ground?" Zimmerman responded "No Sir." Again Hannity asked " You have never heard about it before?," Again the same answer: "No."

IMO, this shows that he was deliberately cultivating his innocence claim at least since July 18, 2012, so it's just not that big of a stretch that he may have been doing the same thing since the moment the police showed up at the crime scene. It helps explain why he was asking the concerned citizen with a flashlight to help him restrain the corpse instead of asking him to call 911 (clearly illustrating his misplaced priorities), and was allegedly "shocked" to hear that his victim had died.

Oh, as I recall, this was the same interview when he said he had NO REGRETS about what happened that night. In other words, felt no need to acknowledge the parents' pain or say how sorry he was that he killed the kid. This kinda flies in the face of that statement to the investigator that, "In my religion, it's always a sin to kill somebody."

Credibility is key. No two ways about it.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-stand-ground-class/story?id=19565190#.UdROSTu1Ek0

Score one for depraved mind. - This is beyond rational fear. nm

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nm

why do you have to say pathetic? - nm

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NOT GUILTY - xx

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The kid approached him and started the whole physical alteracation. If you are trained with guns, as I am, if you are in imminent danger for your life, as Zimmerman was with the 6'1" 160 pound young man on top of him beating the living tar out of him, he had every right in the world to shoot him to defend his own life. I don't care what age the "kid" was, he was big and strong and apparently, even though Zimmerman did not know, had a rap sheet too. Not a "nice young man" at all.

How do you get that he was "beating the living - tar out of him?"

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His injuries were described as superficial and "insignificant." That is not a beating.

Since you say Martin was not a nice kid, well Zimmerman was not a nice adult. He was arrested for resisting arrest with violence and battery of an officer. His charges were reduced after he entered an alcohol program. He was also arrested for domestic violence.

Correct, and by a medical examiner - sm

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From experience, head injuries bleed profusely. Zimmerman's injuries in no way are consistent with life-threatening beating.

The medical examiner's statements were pretty disarming to the defense for sure.

Did you see the info coming out about this medical - examiner? Total flake and cheat !! nm

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nm

Coming out from where? - sm

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Since the jury is sequestered, their realm of knowledge will be restricted to what comes out in that courtroom. Are you referring to anything at all that is going to be part of the court record, or is this another twittersphere phenomenon where witnesses are personally attacked for standing up to the defense and testifying favorably for the prosecution?

BTW, the ME is not a 19-year-old friend of Trayvon Martin. She's a Chief Medical Examiner with decades of experience who has seen plenty of REAL and serious injuries in her time.

Not a cheat BUT - Nick

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Poorly educated by American standards (he got his medical degree in Shanghai) and totally ignorant of the Rules of Criminial Procedure. He has only testified in court about 20 times in 20 years of practice. Most MEs testify thousands of times. He clearly is not aware of proper courtroom procedure. If he is not careful, he could get sanctioned.

Martin was 5'11" 158 pounds, Zimmerman 5'7" 185 pounds trained in martial arts - and gun-toting confidence

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Martin was described as skinny.

What a sad commentary that anyone would condone and justify murder of everyone with a "rap sheet."

PA recorded his weight as 204 pounds the day - after he shot Trayvon

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so he was throwing around 46 more pounds than his victim.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2013-06-28/news/os-george-zimmerman-trial-day-15-20130628_1_george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-mark-o-mara

Z was "obese", out of shape. T was a football - player with witness testifying he beat Z ! nm

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nm

He certainly didn't look obese right after the attack. He looked quite - fit and strong. NM

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x

Must have been those 3 times weekly workouts at the "best equipped - fight gym in the world!"

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I hear kickboxing burns beaucoup calories. Just look at how much weight he gained when he couldn't get to the gym after lying to the judge about his passport and finances, resulting in his prolonged lockup.

That's a mighty big IF. - Rap sheet?

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I don't recall anything thus far in the trial that has established who pulled the first punch, but we do know which one was following the other, profiling a "suspicious" "suspect" (who in reality was minding his own business) and making deadly assumptions about "___holes who always get away."

Trayvon had a school record of suspensions, not a rap sheet, whereas Zimmerman had a real life arrest record for alcohol-related resisting an officer with violence, battery of law enforcement officer, and a restraining order for domestic violence...all charges with the common thread of violence.

He had purchased SKITTLES AND ICED TEA - wheres_my_job

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I would say he was MORE THAN minding his own business. He was getting ready to RELAX and TAKE IT EASY. Definitely not in the frame of mind to beat somebody up AT ALL!!!!!!

Sorry for the all caps here and there - I'm just strongly agreeing with you!

the kid approached him? - tvc

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Where do you get that info? If you are trained with guns, I certainly hope you can discern the difference between reality and assumption. To date, being big and strong does not qualify as a good reason to be shot in the U.S. Trayvon Martin did NOT have a "rap sheet," nor was he beating the tar out of Zimmerman.

Let's try to avoid saying just anything in an attempt to relieve Zimmerman of responsibility here. The fact that we can understand how this terrible incident came to pass doesn't mean the incident is understandable.

I've heard that a great way to stop an argument is to show the other guy your gun. Using the gun, however, can lead to death. Zimmerman made a horrible error. It's not up to us to "relate" to how Zimmerman may have been "feeling." It is up to us to honor and respect the fact that people are protected from being shot by other people.

Not Guilty - sm

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Until you are in a situation where you feel "threatened" you cannot know how easy it is to pull that trigger. You also most often will not be able to calculate in your mind how close range you are, where the wound would maybe not be fatal, etc.

The guy should have identified himself, explained what was going on rather than causing an altercation and maybe he wouldn't have lost his life. It is sad that it happened, but obviously Zimmerman didn't set out to murder someone, he felt threatened and perhaps a big over-zealous.

He ignored orders to back off. - sm

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I don't see how what Martin "should have" done leaves him more responsible than what Zimmerman should have done, which is what the authorities were specifically telling him to do and which he blatantly ignored.

If he felt threatened, he should have listened to the authorities and walked away.

With adrenaline pumping, - sm

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You can't say how you would have reacted. For ME, I don't know if I would have walked away from someone because someone on the phone told me to. Had the police been there with weapons to protect me, then yes, but to walk away not knowing if he was armed or not, can't say that I would have.

I have been attacked, in the dark, alone. - sm

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I had 16 stitches near my right eye and I had to take liquid food for a week. I'll have a huge scar on my face for the rest of my life.

Zimmerman had some superficial abrasions. I don't believe his head was repeatedly pounded, as he claims.

He should have walked away.

Lest we forget, he could have locked his truck doors - and driven around

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until the police arrive if he was so freaked out about his personal safety. In fact, he was supposed to be retrieving an address.

Or, he could have gone to the party store and bought a candy bar, and called it a day - wheres_my_job

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He followed because he wanted an altercation and he WANTED TO USE HIS GUN.

He wasn't told to walk away from a fight - wheres_my_job

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he was told to stop following Trayvon, the police would handle it!!!!!!!

Ain't guns great?! - sm

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People who choose to be gun-toting deciders of who deserves to live or die should be held to a much higher standard when their subjective decision results in the death of a human being.

Yes, they are, when defending your life ! - What if it happened to you?!! nm

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nm

What if it happened to your child?!! - NM

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x

kinda scary - NK

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to me that it might be easy to pull that trigger when you feel "threatened" and most often not able to calculate the consequences, particularly since I live in a concealed carry state. I think the quotes around threatened are very telling. Sounds like if you subjectively feel threatened you think someone can shoot now and ask questions later.

For example...you've just got done doing MT work - wheres_my_job

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You've had it. You're ready to quit, but worry about not being able to pay your mortgage, and whatever obligations you may have to others financially, like children.

So you push away from your computer, doing the frustrating aggravating and boring work that is MT these days, besides the low pay, and you go for a walk.

You're not a little woman - let's say you're tall and heavy from eating donuts while you work for years and years (hey it happens). You're walking, you're not smiling, and you're wearing grungy I don't give a darn clothes. Maybe even a hoodie!!!! Maybe you've even got a donut in your pocket or a candy bar, that you keep your hand on.

George Zimmerman, armed and dangerous and a hoodie-hater, is following you. You're already pissed about your job situation, you're stressed out, you're trying to relax with a walk, and there's some kook following you.

So you go to confront him, you don't mince words. He doesn't mince words either. Maybe he gets too close to you, you step back, he steps closer, so you put your hand up to tell him to not get closer - he interprets this as a swing at him, and he starts hitting you.

Do you hit back?

If you do, do you deserve to die, because you didn't respond politely?

Why is wearing a hoodie on a rainy February evening construed as - impending criminal activity?

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Or taking a short-cut from the street? Or walking instead of running in the rain? Or using a cut-through walkway that runs through the complex? Or passing by windows where the lights are on? Or being a visitor in a gated community the Neighborhood Watch guy has never seen? Can any of the not-guilty responders please explain this?

blaming the victim - tvc

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So tell me, the last time you were followed, did it occur to you to turn around and say "Hello. My name is Jane. I am simply walking to my home." And if you failed to identify yourself and explain your actions, would that legitimize getting shot?

This isn't about understanding how Zimmerman was "feeling". However, it is about how easy it is to pull that trigger - and the laws we have in place in America that determine how much right we have to do so in any given circumstance.

"Perhaps a bit overzealous" is not the best was to describe the killing of another person. Every now and then a parent kills their own kid by mistaking them for an intruder. Somehow, I doubt they describe their behavior as "perhaps a bit overzealous."

Bingo! Nail on head. - ty nm

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x

Wow some of you guys have got him convicted - before the trial is even over

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Aren't you all just special. Lets convict the guy and not give him a chance at a fair trial.

I sat on jury one time of a rape trial. We all learned a lesson from that. We pretty much were decided the guy was guilty just from his girlfriends testimony alone. What a slimeball to do that to her he was. On our 4th day into the trial the judge came out and dismissed us and thanked us. The girl had lied about it and there was no rape. She was mad at him.

So I say Zimmerman is not guilty until otherwise proven he is. All I know is this. If I have some kid on top of me smashing my head into the ground saying the stuff that kid was saying I will do what is necessary to protect myself. It does not matter what color they are. So unless they prove otherwise he is innocent until proven guilty.

Is there a difference between - NK

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"Some of you guys have got him convicted before the trial is over" and some of you guys have got him not guilty before the trial is over?

The OP posed the question. I think we all understand innocent until proven - guilty We're discussing

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based on what's out there right now in the trial.

There's a difference between what we think and what the evidence proves. The OP didn't ask if we thought he was guilty or if we thought he would be found guilty.

Earlier in the week I was of the opinion that even though it was my personal opinion he was guilty, the way the evidence was going, it looked like he had a good chance of being found not guilty. But the testimony is finally improving for the prosecution now.

We are just having a discussion. The jury makes the final decision. I'm pretty sure most of us grasp that provision of the constitution.

I think it's safe to say we can have opinions and - we're not jurors.

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It's also safe to say that we're all well aware that he's innocent until proven guilty.

We just think he WILL be proven guilty.

So yes, we ARE all "just special." You, on the other hand, are just sarcastic.

Not guilty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Tons of reasonable doubt !! nm

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nm

Agreed. Tons of reasonable doubt over GZ's multiple versions and - baldface lies he told. nm

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Not guilty of murder, maybe manslaughter - sm

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I don't think his intent was enough to even give second-degree murder charges, but I DO feel some type of punishment is warranted. It really raises the concern of what exactly is self-defense. People here and elsewhere have said that his life wasn't in that much jeopardy to constitute taking a life, but we don't know what HE was feeling in that moment and in the spur of the moment it would be difficult to react rationally, I think.

With that being said, SOMETHING needs to be done about gun carriers so that it's not a case of them getting to decide who lives or dies.

If he was in so much jeopardy - why didnt he walk away as instructed

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Or even get out of his vehicle in the first place.

We also do not know what Trayvon Martin was feeling - about

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being followed on a dark rainy night when walking through the complex on his way home from the convenience store, nor do we know from anyone other than GZ, the guy on trial, who threw the first punch. Where I think reasonable doubt comes into play is HIS claim to be the one screaming out for help simultaneously to when he also claims his nose was being pinched, his mouth was being covered and Trayvon Martin was sliding his hand down his body, going for his gun. Just how many hands are we supposed to believe Trayvon had. Also, at what point in time was the SAFETY removed from the weapon?

Perception of threats - NOT GUILTY

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We all have different perceptions of the fear we feel in certain situations and it's not really fair to say that he wasn't in danger, because we don't know that and we don't know what he felt. When we feel we are in danger, our bodies release all kinds of stuff and we react accordingly.

About a week ago, I was standing out by the road waiting for my husband who had just called saying he was going to pick me up. This guy was walking down the road and to ME he looked like trouble (Most people judge, regardless if they say they don't). He was walking on the opposite side of the road than me, walking fast, looking straight ahead and when he got close to me, he crossed to my side of the road and continued walking straight towards me, no smile, no acknowledging me, nothing.

In MY mind, I thought he had crossed the road to do harm to me. My adrenaline was pumping and I was honestly afraid. He was walking so emotionless and right towards me. I am not really a gun user, so I can't say I would have pulled out a gun, BUT if I would have had a baseball bat or something on me, I probably would have swung it at him when he got close. Anyway, my husband pulls up when this guy was only a few feet from me and I told my husband what happened and my husband said...."He probably crossed the road because of all of those trucks and lawn equipment parked on the other side". I looked over there and he was right, but in my moment of fear, I had no rational thinking, I didn't see that he couldn't walk on the edge of the road on the other side, he had to cross to my side. We all react to fear differently.

Concealed weapons and fear - sm

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It really bothers me that there are people out there with concealed weapons who are nearly afraid of their own shadow. If someone is carrying a concealed weapon, they're probably already a fearful person.

Then you'd be on trial for murder too, if you had shot him - wheres_my_job

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Think through what you're saying - just based on someone's "perception" and "fear" - you can KILL another human being.

That is so wrong.

I agree it's wrong - sm

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I think being allowed to carry a concealed weapon is more of an issue. People react out of fear and they may fire a gun that is not justified.

GUILTY! - notaracist

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George Zimmerman has had run-ins with the law as an adult and one where he attacked a law enforcement officer and was sent to ANGER MANAGEMENT classes. He had a restraining order on him from an ex-girlfriend. He was a loser with bad credit and estranged from his family. His family did not attend his wedding even though it was local. George was failing classes at community college yet pretended he graduated and attended a party for his graduation. He concocted a scheme on prison phone calls with his lying wife to hide money from the court so he could have a low bond and had his wife perjured herself. All around GZ is a Loser who has a history of arrests and a failure at everything he tried. Would I believe a word he says? NO! He is guilty of profiling, stalking, confronting and murdering a skinny kid who just turned 17. You can see by GZ's looks, his obese bloated body and face, he has no self-control. He is a lying murdering weasel. I hope his wife is jailed as well for lying under oath. They both belong in an institution.

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