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Ouch!!!! Dow down over 312 points supposedly due to

Posted: Nov 7, 2012

Wall Street worrying about the fiscal cliff and new taxes coming in January. Moody warns a U.S. debt downgrade is still possible. That doesn't bode well for our country, either.

;

also due to fears over european econoomy..crisis - cj

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no other msg!

Libs voted for this - and we'll all suffer

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Just watching all those people there last night, waving their little flags, totally oblivious to what they have just done. All I can do is pray. Are they going to be so happy and hopeful when gas is $6 a gallon?

lest you forget - sm

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we will all have to buy electric cars where we can reach a maximum speed of maybe 25 mph and go maybe 200 miles before charging our cars! That would be thoser tiny little cars that are about safe as driving around in a tin can! Then it will be the cost of electricity that will do us in!

You're right - anon

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I forgot about the "green energy" the President touts so highly. Care to wager which comes first, $6 gas or electric cars? My bet is the $6 gas to justify production of electric cars. What happens to the rest of us in the meantime? We cannot afford the new "green" cars and can't afford the gas, not to mention the higher prices in the stores due to transportation costs. They say they want the rich to pay more, but I think the poor will end up paying more for this fiasco.

I just heard someone talking about all the - horrifying predictions when SM

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Obama won in 2008. LOL. This is very familiar. BTW, none of it happened. The one that made me laugh was OMG, Obama is going to take our guns away!!! LOL

The only reason - anon

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this stuff didn't happen his first term was because he spent so much time his first 2 years in office trying to pass Obamacare. Then after the GOP retook the house, he was effectively stopped from doing too much more damage. Since the GOP still has the house, he can only accomplish what he wants by executive order or by having the agencies take action on their own (EPA with regulations, HHS with Obamacare regulations along with IRS, etc). You make jokes, remind me of those people waving their little flags last night, you just don't take this seriously until it affects something you care about, and what will happen then? Maybe we feel about our guns like you feel about your birth control, so scared somebody's gonna take it away. Is guaranteed birth control in the Constitution?

Not in Constitution and guess what - NOT IN OBAMACARE EITHER-LOL

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So sorry to all you gals who expected to get your birth control free in Obamacare.

You do realize gas is going to be $6 - Fanatical Hypocrite

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No matter what. How would Romney have prevented fossil fuels from ever running out? No matter what, there will be a gas crisis in all our futures. It's an inevitability.

While I don't think this country is out of the woods just because Obama's still in there, mainly since the president has only so much power to effect the economy, I do feel we have a better chance with him than with Romney. Romney's nonsensical plan to increase spending, lower revenue, destroy social progress, outsource everything, burden the middle class with corporate debt and make the debt magically disappear was pie in the sky. Our recovery will be long and slow no matter who the president is and it could all come crashing down regardless.

I see this as due to the fact that the economy is being manipulated by an upper class that is both extremely greedy and ignorant. They want more money, have no moral objections as to how they get it and no real idea on how the economy works to prevent the sort of catastrophes we've seen so far. They are children with matches.

Do you believe fossil fuels will run out - in our lifetimes?

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I believe gas will be $6 a gallon in the coming years because libs will not allow domestic drilling for oil. It is here on this continent and drilling for it would instantly bring the price down, create jobs in the energy industry and create prosperity. Obama tried his green energy ideas, Solyndra anyone? How many millions of dollars did us taypayers lose with that one? But instead we are dependent on foreign oil and at their mercy in terms of price.

Depends on definition of out - Fanatical Hypocrite

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I'm 27, so if I'm lucky and live very long, I'll see the end of petroleum as a major world commodity. Will it run out? No. Will there be enough for cars and power plants? No. Oil isn't going to run out, but the number of people using it will be so much higher than the amount of oil coming out of the ground that it will make no difference. Gas prices will continue to rise exponentially now.

As for Solyndra, yes, it was a failure, but the majority of green tech investments are still going with a larger margin of predicted failure still unmet. Green tech creates jobs too.

As for the millions lost by taxpayers, I feel we must factor into fossil fuels the cost of environmental repair. I'm not talking about climate change, I'm talking about verifiable pollution and contamination of air, water and ground water through drilling, fracking, mining, refining and utilizing. Domestic drilling could theoretically lower the cost (if the oil companies decided to kick the profits back to us) in the short term, but America is not Saudi Arabia of old. Short term gains would then be met by prices raising once again and a subtotal collapse of the oil industry from untenable pricing due to dwindling supply and growing demand.

very interesting comments, FH - (and so concise!)...nm

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about that debt - sm

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The man who has burdened the middle class is Obama. His effect on the economy has been to increase the national debt faster and farther than all of history! You say the president has only so much power to effect the economy. Well, i say thank God for that. someone or something has to hold this man in check or who knows where we would be. Anybody wanna move to Greece? Or maybe adapt to Chinese rule?

The debt is harder to assess than - Fanatical Hypocrite

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one might expect. First off, many could blame the vast majority of the debt on Bush. His spend first and pay later method of financing the wars led to a massive swell of debt. This was further ballooned by tax cuts, tax rebates, increases to Medicare and the stimulus.

Furthermore, much of the debt accumulated during Obama's administration is from the continuation of the tax cut, more stimulus packages (which I disagree with him over, but at least he put some minor safeguards on the money rather than a blank check) and the continuation of the wars. Now I would have already abandoned Afghanistan and Iraq by now, so I disagree with Obama on that too, but still, he didn't start the wars. Only the equally stupid war in Libya.

As far as Obamacare, the administration claims it won't cost anything, the opposition says it'll sink the country and the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. Rumsfeld would say that it is a known unknown, something we know that we don't know.

Greece is a different matter as they are resourceless country using someone else's currency (thus preventing them from properly manipulating it to their own benefit) and a sense of entitlement that even us lazy liberals can't match.

sm - dina

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Your last paragraph:

I see this as due to the fact that the economy is being manipulated by an upper class that is both extremely greedy and ignorant. They want more money, have no moral objections as to how they get it and no real idea on how the economy works to prevent the sort of catastrophes we've seen so far. They are children with matches.

This is so full of contradiction and inaccuracy it is not even funny. how can the wealthy not know how the economy really works but yet be the ones who manipulate it? And really, just how jealous are you. Too bad, someone has money that you don't have so call them all greedy and ignorant. You are willing to condemn the entire "upper class" because of the actions of some. You do know that in our society you basically only hear about the bad. The good goes on about its business without notice or recognition, right? Your true colors are showing, and it is green, and not at all becoming. There is also a large portion of that upper class you so malign that are wonderful upstanding people who are generous, kind, and giving people. You just are too blinded by your own jealousy to see it. Without their contributions, I shudder to think what might not be funded and/or accomplished. do yourself a favor and do some research into charitable giving, charitable action, charitable foundations and the like. then you might look like you know what you are talking about instead of coming off as the green eyed monster.

You make a good point about charity - Fanatical Hypocrite

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I think you misunderstood me - I wasn't as clear as I should have been - that I was implying some kind of global conspiracy by saying they were manipulating the economy. My metaphor about them being kids with matches was to imply that they know how to manipulate the economy, they just don't know how to control it. In the same way a child can create and manipulate fire, yet lacks the knowledge to control it or even know that they can't control it.

I stand by my metaphor that they are children. Children aren't bad. They simply haven't developed a concrete sense of morality yet. Many rich people give to charity. Oftentimes it's the arts. Art is a central drive of humanity and I feel without it human beings are nothing more than animals in suits. BUT, I feel that we have an obligation to take care of the sick, homeless and starving first, before we go to the ballet.

So, many of the rich are great people who champion the causes of the weak and disenfranchised. You are right and I applaud them for their humanity. However, many of their ilk can't be trusted and must remain within the law and that law must encompass all of us. Otherwise, there is no point to a code of laws. Even if a millionaire chooses to be a good person, the fact that it was a choice for them and not for us shows the hypocrisy within the system.

In regards to my jealousy, that is a common problem. We all experience jealousy. However, to be jealous, one must covet what another has. I am jealous of a lot of people, but I covet nothing the rich have. What would I do with a personal submarine, my own tropic island, a mansion in a gated community or a jet? I have no where I want to fly. I'm only one man, so I need a house with only one bedroom. I was raised by Protestant Catholic Quaker Humanist Jews (Thanksgiving was a non-violent, yet very loud holy war) and taught to value the land, family, love, nature and humanity. So while I have a million and one failings, being jealous of rich is not it. I don't even need a dime of their money sent my way. I want no entitlement. No check in the mail or dollars off my tax bill. What I want to see is less people in mansions and more people off the streets. Less people eating gold (actual food item) and more people getting a warm meal in their bellies. Less people going wind surfing with nude models and more people getting to live to spend time with their families because they got to see a doctor. If that's jealousy, I am very, very, very jealous.

So, to me, the rich are children. We can't be too strict, or we'll damage their frail little psyches, but they need structure. They need rules and limitations. Or they will be spoiled brats all their lives and they will never become adults.

"No man is above the law and no man is below it; nor do we ask any man's permission when we require him to obey it. Obedience to the law is demanded as a right; not asked as a favor." - Teddy Roosevelt.

love this post - nm

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Correction: Libs, dems, independents, centrists, - moderates and GOP refugees did this! nm

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nm

Like! (nm) - Former Republican

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nm

Would really like to know - what you need

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to see out of the GOP camp before you'd be willing to return to the fold? My sister is so despondent over her "forced defection" (her words, not mine) she's not able to answer this question for me and I find the media spin on this to be unsatisfying. It's been really hard for her, though she did get out and vote yesterday. I just think what's happened to them is really bad for the country and would like to see them "find themselves" again.

I would like... - Former Republican

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...for the GOP to spend more time trying to solve the country's problems and less time with social engineering and trying to inject religion into government. It just seems like over the past 20 years or so, the religious right has taken over the party. Not all Republicans are Christian...I'm agnostic. Also, I'm horrified that people like Rush Limbaugh and Donald Trump are revered by many in the GOP, when really they should be relegated to laughingstock territory. I hope this election is a wake-up call for the party and that they regroup and move to a more center-right position. The hard right turn the GOP has taken is a big turn off to many. I'm not the only person I know who changed their affiliation to Independent recently.

And I'm sure you will believe - vf

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it was your prayers that turned this country around after Obama does all the work.

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