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Arkansas Adopts a Ban on Abortions After 12 Weeks.
Posted: Mar 7, 2013
24 week limit set by the Supreme Court. I don't believe fertilized ova are human beings, but we all know at some point they are and I definitely believe in erring well on the side of caution on how far along to allow abortions.
How is it that the antiabortionists, so passionate about saving lives, have always refused to join with the many, many people who believe as I do to roll back the limit? Having protected second-trimester babies, they could always then continue their fight for a total ban.
NY Times story about the Arkansas's new challenge to Roe v. Wade at the link below.
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Do some time working in MFM - VP
[ In Reply To ..]and you may change your mind. There are many wanted/planned pregnancies that have major abnormalities detected after 12 weeks, and the decision to terminate is one made in the best interest of the child/family.
Sorry, but IMO, Arkansas or anyone for that matter should not be deciding whether someone should be born with devastating/painful medical conditions (or possibly fatal conditions) with very little chance of any quality of life at all, not to mention deciding that the woman/family is ready to be financially, emotionally, and physically capable of caring for a child with the medical condition.
Please excuse any typos.... still working on my first cup of coffee.
Very good point, but let's do the testing before-- - we now have the ability to detect almost
[ In Reply To ..]everything and can develop new tests to prevent tragedies.
As for Arkansas, its law is unconstitutional so won't be going into effect any time soon, but I do hope this might trigger something. We can do better. Perhaps we could replace some of the antiabortion obstruction to early-pregnancy monitoring and care with care and detection, publicly financed as necessary and available in all communities.
Why would this be unconstitutional? - Truthhurts
[ In Reply To ..]I'm not up on abortion laws because I've never had the choice. Aobrtion was always illegal and Roe v. Wade came after my son was born (not that I'd have one anyway), but hasn't the argument always been that if there's a heart beat, it's a living "thing?" So note part of the first sentence.
.... 12 weeks of pregnancy, when a fetal heartbeat can typically be detected by abdominal ultrasound.
Why would there be an argument over it? BTW, a woman is NOT FORCED to look at an ultrasound. They can turn their head, cover their eyes, etc., etc. They can REFUSE to look at an ultrasound if they don't want to because that's their right, just like it's the right of anyone to refuse treatment for an illness and/or test procedures to correct a problem.
The Supreme Court set the 24-week limit based on - viability outside the womb. nm
[ In Reply To ..]x
So, they aren't doctors and shouldn't their decision be overturned then? - Truthhurts
[ In Reply To ..]?
Doctors don't make laws. - but I'm sure *a couple* were consulted.
[ In Reply To ..].
You don't have to be a doctor to understand what - VP
[ In Reply To ..]viability is!!
I wish many lawmakers and pro-lifers could understand too.
doctors don't get to make constitutional decisions - doe
[ In Reply To ..]As the poster above mentioned, the 24-week limit is based on the ability of the fetus to survive OUTSIDE of the womb. Even premature infants delivered naturally at this gestational age are offered no lifesaving interventions in many hospitals.
Not sure why you're directing that question to me. - VP
[ In Reply To ..]However, detection of a fetal heartbeat does not equal fetal viability. A heartbeat can be detected way before a fetus has any chance of surviving outside the womb. Anyone who is going to be introducing or supporting any laws regarding time limits on abortion should know this... or take a refresher biology class.
I believe 100% in a woman's right to choose. More importantly, I believe in access to education and family planning in order to avoid an unplanned pregnancy. If in that situation, I would hope that the woman has access and ability to make the decision to terminate as early as possible if that is her choice. HOWEVER, my post had more to do with the PLANNED pregnancies where severe abnormalities are detected around the 20-week ultrasound point, and women/couples/families are faced with termination or carrying to term and having a child with a severe (possibly painful and/or fatal) medical condition or abnormality. I've worked in MFM, seen women go through this, and it's heartbreaking. Their decisions are made in the unborn child's best interest and what's best for their families and their other children, and it's a decision that should be made in PRIVATE and not have to pass anyone else's moral sniff test to get a thumbs up to proceed.
Sorry, that post should have gone under the poster after you. - Truthhurts
[ In Reply To ..]As for fetal viability, I feel that if "it has a heartbeat," it is a living being and they have the right to survive; i.e., cannot be aborted, yet I'm also for abortion in the sense that if you don't want a child, okay but don't put yourself in the position where you could get pregnant to start with...AND definitely in the case of rape, incest, and other crimes like that, since that poor child would be a reminder of the crime.
Others would say "there's always adoption" but therein lies the largest problem. With the strict adoption rules, it takes years and the paperwork is frustrating, plus the costs of the adoption itself. What to do is another enigma. The rule of d#$*^#@ if you do and d#w%$0 if you don't..
I think the best we can do is provide - ease of access to birth control
[ In Reply To ..]Sorry, I'm jumping in on the conversation, not the person you were responding to. I just feel so strongly that providing low cost birth control to women, especially the long-term medications that can last as long as 5 years, is a huge factor in reducing abortions.
Absolutely! Unfortunately puberty is now hitting as young - as 7; unusual but pregnant not at all. More
[ In Reply To ..]than just birth control is needed to help foolish young girls who can't even take care of themselves yet.
In addition to that, maybe we should follow Europe's lead and get the artificial hormones out of the food supply--to roll the age of puberty back where nature intended.
I agree with you - completely!
[ In Reply To ..].
But then you have the morons like these folks - BillyJoe
[ In Reply To ..]Who not only want to bury their heads in the sand, yet they want to spend 110 million in federal funding annually to promote it. WASTE OF MONEY!
Where are the people who complain that schools - are usurping parents' roles? nm
[ In Reply To ..]x
What's the big deal? Sex education has been in school since the '60s. - Truthhurts
[ In Reply To ..]This would expand it somewhat. Sebelius wants it, too.
"The bill will not increase the federal budget, but will fund the program through monies already allocated in Secretary [Sebelius]' Prevention and Public Health Fund," a press release by the National Abstinence Education Association said.
Whats the problem? - BillyJoe
[ In Reply To ..]1) It doesnt work. Nov. 29, 2011 — States that prescribe abstinence-only sex education programs in public schools have significantly higher teenage pregnancy and birth rates than states with more comprehensive sex education programs, researchers from the University of Georgia have determined
The researchers looked at teen pregnancy and birth data from 48 U.S. states to evaluate the effectiveness of those states' approaches to sex education, as prescribed by local laws and policies.
"Our analysis adds to the overwhelming evidence indicating that abstinence-only education does not reduce teen pregnancy rates," said Kathrin Stanger-Hall, assistant professor of plant biology and biological sciences in the Franklin College of Arts and Sciences.
2) It will not increase the budget, but it will allocate grant money to something that is proven NOT to work. Waste of money. What programs that actually work and will be of help will have money taken away to fund this joke.
How much could it cost to keep teenagers from having sex? More than $100 million per year over the course of five years would be a good starting place, according to a bill introduced last month by a bipartisan duo of congressmen.
The Abstinence Education Reallocation Act, brought forth by Reps. Randy Hultgren (R-Ill.) and Daniel Lipinski (D-Ill.) on Valentine's Day, seeks to award $550 million in Affordable Care Act grants over five years to programs that provide teenagers with abstinence-only education.
Turns out Arkansas law is similar to many nations' - in Europe. Article inside.
[ In Reply To ..]One of the great ironies of American abortion-rights law is that it is one of the few areas of social regulation where America is to the left of Europe. The latest explosion in one of the laboratories of democracy is a piece of legislation in Arkansas outlawing abortion after 12 weeks of pregnancy, which passed this week when the Republican legislature overruled the gubernatorial veto of Democrat Mike Beebe.
Should this clear violation of the viability framework laid out in Roe v. Wade be allowed to stand -- and experts on both sides of the abortion fight predict that it won't be -- it would serve to make Arkansas the most restrictive state in the nation when it comes to the legal availability of abortion. (It may not actually become the hardest state to in which to obtain an abortion; other states already have less functional though more legal access to abortion). It also serves to make Arkansas the one American state to take a direct European-style approach to the regulation of abortion.
It's hard to imagine that's what bill sponsor State Senator Jason Rapert -- who previously gained notoriety for racially charged anti-Obama remarks made at a 2011 Tea Party rally -- was going for.
But it's been the case since their abortion laws were liberalized in the 1970s that many of the European nations have abortion laws not much less strict than the one Arkansas just passed. France permits abortions up until the 14th week of pregnancy (which is counted from the date of the last menstrual period, even though ovulation doesn't usually occur until one to two weeks after that). After that, abortions are only available in exigent circumstances, such as severe fetal deformities, or to save the health or life of the mother. France also has a mandatory one-week waiting period for all abortions (they prefer to describe it as a "cooling-off" period), unless by so waiting the woman would pass the 14-week cut-off, which coincides with the end of the first trimester. Other nations that restrict abortions largely to the first trimester include: Germany (14 weeks), Italy (90 days from the last menstrual period), Spain (14 weeks), and Portugal (10 weeks).
Most women in the United States who seek abortions do so within these early weeks as well; according to the National Abortion Federation, 88 percent of all abortions "are obtained within the first 12-13 weeks after the last menstrual period." A third of those obtained after 12 weeks are sought by teenagers, whose irregular menstrual cycles, lack of knowledge about sex and biology, lack of resources, and complex family dynamics combine to make it harder for them to recognize they are pregnant and seek an abortion in a timely manner. "Fewer that 2 percent" of abortions take place after 21 weeks, or in the third trimester, according to NAF.
"This is a very unique bill," said NARAL Pro-Choice America spokesperson Samantha Gordon, speaking of the Arkansas act. "It's the first one of its kind."
Rest of article below.
mixed metaphors - sm
[ In Reply To ..]The European nations mentioned do not prevent women from seeking abortion later in pregnancy due to fetal or maternal health. That stands in contrast to the Arkansas proposal.
Yeah, while I think 12 weeks - Fanatical Hypocrite
[ In Reply To ..]is fine for a limit, it should be waived in cases of birth defects or serious health conditions. I don't think any child or adult should be forced to live with a terrible debilitating and painful condition. I remember watching a Discovery Health channel special about a little boy who was born with a disease where his skin comes off constantly. Every time they give him a bath he howls in pain as his skin peels off. He's not expected to become a teenager. I can't in a million years imagine forcing any living being to go through that for the pay off of dying before their life even gets started.
So I stand against any one size fits all abortion bill. There should always be waivers for rape and incest, extreme deformity/disease, and safety of the mother.
Now as for financial circumstances, I figure it's only fair that the religious right step up. Put their money where their mouth is. If the baby has a treatable condition that the parents can't afford, the treatment is low cost or no cost.
Finally, for unfit parents, I'd be willing to waive this one too if the adoption system had the capacity to find homes for every child who needs one. Until then, first trimester abortion is the best option we have. If the religious right finds that unacceptable, stop breeding and start adopting. A lot people out there walk the walk, but I've known so many that talk about giving every child a home and how important every life is, then they do nothing about it. My Catholic family always gave the excuse "I would adopt, but I already have 16 kids and we're on food stamps." Seriously, the first baby could be a surprise. Maybe even the second one. But after that if you haven't figured out what causes babies, you should be neutered/spayed;)
Comedy disclaimer: I don't think the federal government should spay and neuter people. I think it should be handled by the states.
Comedy disclaimer 2: That was also a joke. It should be handled by a militia of rogue vigilante doctors.
Agree, agree, agree. Wise and civilized societies - don't do one law/punishment for all. nm
[ In Reply To ..]x
I would go along with this if it meant ... - me
[ In Reply To ..]...the end of strange and humiliating practices like forcing women to see an ultrasound of the fetus and the doctor describing it to her. Or at 48-hour waiting period for an abortion. That behavior is bizarre and treats women like children.
12 weeks is a good cut off. And I've read a lot of women choose the abortion pill these days anyway, so that would certainly fit within the timeframe.
But then let there be no more debate about women and the right to choose. And stop eroding their rights.
I don't agree with abortion - Trigger Happy
[ In Reply To ..]but I have always suggested a timeframe to have an abortion. I think those who want it done away with 100% are really unrealistic. That is a goal that probably won't happen...so why not start somewhere and save the babies you can by a period of time.
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