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To: Liberty RE: Closing statement...sm

Posted: Jul 24, 2012

In a response below you stated: "My final and closing argument: All I know is that I am almost 60 years old. I have seen that the Welfare programs which were implemented in the 60s have not done this country any good. More people are on welfare than before so the programs we have aren't working. There is so much fraud and abuse, and these are programs run by the government. The government can't run these programs effectively. You can't just keep pouring money into something that doesn't work. I should say: I refuse to let the government keep taking MY money and throwing it into programs that aren't working and allowing my money to be used in a wasteful manner."

I just wanted to explore this topic further as I think there is a valid discussion here.

I agree with you in that I also don't like throwing money in a black hole with no results. However, I don't feel the Welfare programs themselves are the real problem. I think the real problem is the fact that minimum wage for years has been below the poverty level. That accompanied by the fact that our country's manufacturing sector has been outsourced to other countries leaves very few alternatives for low-skilled or no-skilled workers. Welfare (which includes social security, btw) was meant to be an aid for people to get back on their feet. But, if there isn't anything to get back up to...where do you go? We can re-train them, but for what? Higher education isn't even helping right now because there simply is nowhere to put them all.

So what do we do? Do we just cut off Welfare and say you were the unlucky ones who are unskilled so you're just gonna have to starve?

Do some people take advantage of the system? Of course they do! Just like corporations take advantage of tax loopholes and cuts for offshoring jobs.

I think the solution is to first, get our outsourced jobs back, but republicans in Congress just killed a bill that would do that. It seems republicans want it both ways. They want to keep the status quo for corporations/big business and then refuse to acknowledge the effects that has on the rest of the country, while at the same time pointing a big 'who done it' finger at the poor, trying to make them out to be the bad guys.

;

No one ever pointed a finger at the poor & - "tried to make them the bad guys"

[ In Reply To ..]
Just another twisted liberal Democrat spin to deflect the attention from the real problems.

Poverty..Welfare...Offshoring...sm - JTBB

[ In Reply To ..]
Those aren't real problems? Maybe I should have stuck to the subjects *** like...did Obama really eat his dog...or maybe...how mind control strikes in Colorado...

As far as making welfare recipients out to be the bad guys...yes, this has been done for years. Wake up. If you need examples, just go to Fox noise.

Speaking of noise - adequately describes your posts

[ In Reply To ..]
and the mindless re-iteration of the DNC talking points in Media Matters, CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC. Yes...We all know you are majorly impressed with your posts...the rest of us, not so much. But heh, if the rude, condescending comments work for ya, says more about you.

Now where are all those documents Obama refuses to provide and has legally fought to keep from public view? Yeah, his baptismal certificate might really implode Natonal Security..gotta sue to keep that under lock and key. Or maybe it is the grade school transcipts. Might prove Obama really cannot add 2+2 or MAYBE Obama couldn't spell dog...only eat them. Yep...Records must still be in the fire pit with Fido!

Guess now you want to decide AGAIN what is okay to post and not. No different than your constant ad nauseum posts about Romeny tax records. You want to post that at the end of your posts, expect it right back atacha darlin'

Pitiful. - nm

[ In Reply To ..]
.

Poverty..Welfare...Offshoring...sm - JTBB - Yes, you have pitiful attacks in your messages...

[ In Reply To ..]
.

Hopefully, they'll stay in full throttle right up - until the election

[ In Reply To ..]
Confusing what is nobody's business with what all voters are accustomed to accessing. No exactly what I'd call the most inspired campaign strategy, but does a bangup job of showing just how bankrupt their party platform is, just as this incessant avoidance of real election issues does. I wouldn't look for any specifics to be showing up anytime soon. They're trying to resurrect the Cheney culture of secrecy, based on the false assumption that enough time has passed and we've forgotten what that was all about. I am so sure.

TO: JTBB - Liberty

[ In Reply To ..]
We can sure give it the old college try to explore this topic further! Maybe we could break down your message into smaller parts and discuss each topic separately. It is good we agree on not wanting to throw money into a black hole with no results.

For instance, you think the real problem is because the mimimum wage is below poverty level. What do you think the mimimum wage should be? $12? $15? $20? Higher? I'm sure some people would even say $50. If the mimimum wage has to go up, what would that do to a hamburger at the fast-food restaurant? Or our groceries? Or items at the Dollar Store?...just to name a few examples, but I think you get the picture.

Thank you.
Liberty

I'm no economist, but here's what I recall. - SM

[ In Reply To ..]
I'm not sure how these things are supposed to work in the world of sophisticated economics or according to people who are experts on the subject, but I clearly remember that when the minimum wage was raised during the Clinton administration, a lot of business people predicted that the sky was falling....they would all be crushed by the burden of paying their employees more, and prices would have to skyrocket to cover their increased cost of doing business. But that didn't come to pass, and, in fact, average consumers had more buying power, and it seems like we all did a little better financially in those days.

Again, this isn't anything except for my recollection of how this worked in the past.

And no, I don't in any way think that mininum wage should be on the order of $20 or $50 an hour, but something more than $7.25 would help people make ends meet more easily and maybe even have enough left over to spend more a little extra at those mom-and-pop businesses. Just my opinion.

I think it should be commensurate with.. - JTBB

[ In Reply To ..]
the cost of living and because of that may vary from state to state. I agree that it might raise costs; however, that would depend on the profit margin each of those companies expects to obtain. That is why salaries are low and why jobs are offshored...its cost effective and brings in a bigger profit margin for the coporation/company. I think with big business comes big responsibility. Once your business gets to the size where its actions can effect a whole community, it is that business' responsibility to take that into consideration.

It's almost impossible to look at just one thing at a time as all of these issues effect each other.

RE: I think it should be commensurate... - Liberty

[ In Reply To ..]
You said the minimum wage should be commensurate on things like cost of living from state to state, profit margin of the company, etc.

So, are you saying the government should stay out of it then and let the business owner decide what is best? Or do you think the government should come into each and every company, examine their financial report and tell them what they need to pay?

And would that require an additional federal employee or two {more tax dollars for us to pay the federal employees} or department {s} to determine who goes to what business to tell them what to do?

Thank you.
Liberty

No, I wouldn't give businesses.... - JTBB

[ In Reply To ..]
that much power over it. That's one of our problems right now...lack of regulation. We already have departments to handle it...department of labor, IRS (even though those could use some work). I would suggest each state have a minimum wage set (and reviewed periodically)depending on the cost of living in that state, with oversight by the federal govt. Perhaps there could be some federal help for small businesses to address concerns such as those brought up by Conservative (see posts in this thread).

I think the most important point though is to make it worth while to those folks who want to work. If they are getting the equivolent of $5 on Welfare and they are hired for $6, but transportation and daycare (for example) takes half of that $6, it only makes sense to stay with the $5. That is what's going on with our system right now.

RE: No, I wouldn't give...JTBB - Liberty

[ In Reply To ..]
I am sorry, dear, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on everything. I can't change your mind and you won't change my mind. Your statement about not giving the private business that much power clearly defines who you are, and I am the opposite. It is a private business - the government has no business telling them what they should do.

I believe that government intervention in our life is the common denominator with the problems in our beloved USA today.

The following Government agencies to name a few are failing or broke.

US Postal Service - Broke. They have had 234 years to get it right.
Social Security - Broke. 74 years to get it right.
Fannie Mae - 71 years to get it right and it is broke.
Freddie Mac - 39 years - broke
War on Poverty - 44 years - broke
Amtrak - 39 years - our tax dollars bailed it out last year and it continues to run at a loss.
Federal Reserve Bank - Broke, but they continue to print money. Can YOU do that if you are broke?

Thank you and all the best to you.
Liberty

Agree to disagree....sm - JTBB

[ In Reply To ..]
At least we can agree on that :) I understood your position long before this thread, but the point was not to try to convert you. The point of this discussion (which I thoroughly enjoyed BTW...thank you) was to look at both sides and if not come to a compromise, then to at least gain some understanding. Even though I may disagree with your posts, I do appreciate them as you actually do discuss issues, experiences, etc. I look forward to seeing more of them.

Again, thank you for an informative and intelligent discussion.

Agree to disagree... - Liberty

[ In Reply To ..]
Thank you, also, for the polite and informative discussion and your kind words. Take care. See you around!

Liberty

Government does not run the Federal Reserve. - me

[ In Reply To ..]
It's important to educate yourself if you're going to lecture others.

TO: ME RE: Gov.doesn't run... - Liberty

[ In Reply To ..]
Congress has oversight authority on the Federal Reserve and the Fed. Reserve has to submit a report on the economy twice a year to Congress. That is OK if you disagree with me...I certainly understand your position.

Thank you.

Government does not run the Federal Reserve. - me - This one HAS to start with the snark

[ In Reply To ..]
Beyond you to maintain the civility of the thread and easier just to shoot right to the insults. Proud of your arrogant self?

To Liberty, thought this was interesting - Conservative

[ In Reply To ..]
During the Clinton period, I was in business and empolyed a large number of people in multiple locations. Some of the work required was no skill and required no education to perform. Very simple tasks. Other areas of my business were very highly skilled. When the minimum wage went through and the massive tax increases the small business had thrust upon them by Clinton, I had to do away with all the low/no skill jobs. They either did not get handled or had to be handled by myself and the remaining employees. Every single minimum wager I had lost their job specificaly because of the increase in wages along with the taxes increases. It was the only way to keep the highly skilled paid and working. Eventually, we also closed some of the locations, which had an impact on the vendors and local businesses we had used for years. After it was all said and done, due to increases in so many tax areas, along with the minimum wage, I did away with all employees and paid all help, as I needed, when/if I needed, as ICs.

People that have not run small businesses or been responsible for meeting a payroll routinely, have no idea what they are talking about when they say there is no impact or little impact. Minimum wage jobs were never designed to support anyone; they were designed as entry level positions, to teach people skills, and give them experience to move into better paying, skilled, educated positions.

It is not simply an increase in the minimum wage small businesses need to pay. There are tax entities that are strictly tied to the wages you pay employees which automatically go up by percentages. The increase in wages did absolutely nothing to increase my business; in fact, it had the opposite effect. Businesses that were also feeling the same pinch we were, cut way back on what they bought from us. It is a very viscious, destructive cycle underthe very best of conditions.

What would you say to this? - JTBB

[ In Reply To ..]
What if for small businesses under whatever dollar amount were to only have to pay lets say half of those salaries. For example, a person on welfare gets a minimum wage job at, lets say $10/hr. The business owner would pay $5 and the govt (instead of paying welfare to that person) would pay the other $5 for a period of time such that the person could gain skills.

We had tried programs similar to that - Conservative

[ In Reply To ..]
That included convicts trying to get re-established in society and the work force, people that were currently on Welfare (at that time our state had a work your way off welfare program), people that had been laid off and were trying to get back to work. In some situations, I also provided transportation. It became such a major problem, more with the attitude and entitlement attitude of these workers, that it disrupted the loyal, hard-working employees to the point of impacting my business in a very negative fashion, and then the employees' incomes. I gave all of my employees raises every 6 to 8 months and bonuses for each holiday. These other people we were trying to help were so disruptive, demanding, tardy, would not show up for work, and constant call offs, that it caused major problems. These subsidized workers (for lack of a better term) would call me and tell me what they were going to work, how much they were going to get paid, what days off they were getting, how many hours they would work. After about 18 months, I quit trying to help any of them.

People have to have an attitude of wanting to succeed regardless of what job they apply for, what they are getting paid, or what station in life they hold. I began work at $ 1.00 an hour, no government handouts of any kind, paid for all of my own education. If you expect others to do for you, what you will not do for yourself, you will never succeed, no matter how much cash the government throws at you. That is exactly why the stimulus did not work. No one including governments, can spend or "debt" themselves into prosperity. You have to take pride in yourself and your work ethic regardless of where you are in life.

I tried to answer you question as completely as I possibly could.

In this program...sm - JTBB

[ In Reply To ..]
how much did they make? Was it more than what was provided by welfare? Did it cover added expenses they would incur such as daycare?

Salaries ranged - Conservative

[ In Reply To ..]
They continued to collect from Welfare (they were allowed 2 years while working). They got food stamps, transporation reimbursement (even if I provided the transportation, I got nothing). Many had no children; so, daycare was not an issue. However, Welfare also provided child care assistance if someone needed it. When all was said and done, there are times they cleared more than I did because of all the freebies that I was working 60-70 hours to pay for, and they could not show up to work 35 to 40. I actually had many of them tell me they would never work if it was left up to them. I would bet if I ever went back and looked them up, they are still on the taxpayer dime. Too many scam the system, do not deserve it, and are just plain too lazy to work. Those that truly want to improve their lot in life, and have self respect, will find a way to do so. I did.

On a personal aside, my family, on my mother's side, came over on the Mayflower; I also am part Native American Indian, as well. Not one of my ancestors has ever taken a dime from any government program, including the Indians. If anyone has any idea what my ancesters went through, and what they were fleeing, there would be a very different appreciation of America. On my father's side, my grandfather, who was a more recent immigrant to America, fled a communist country with $ 17.00 in his pocket, spoke no English (taught himself), knew no one in America, and also never took one penny he did not earn. He came through Ellis Island. I am telling you that because my grandfather knew first hand the brutality of communist rule. His family farm, passed and accumulated throught generations of hard work, was confiscated for the "social good" because is was prime land and he was never compensated. He had to continue working the farm, but was not permitted the profits, because it was redistributed as the government saw fit. Becoming an American filled him with an indescribable pride that someone cannot appreciate unless they have lived communism. It is NOT what posters on this board portray it as; they are very, very naive in their assertions and assumptions. Incidentally, my grandfather was never without work, and went on to raise 6 children. So, if he could make it under those circumstances, no reason other cannot put out a little effort and get a job, educate themselves, improve their lot in life.

To Conservative... - Liberty

[ In Reply To ..]
I am so impressed by your experience, knowledge, and now by hearing your family story. The story of your ancestors and more recently your grandfather fleeing a communist country to come to America and what he went through is very heartwarming. I have so much respect for you and your family. I am at a loss for words. And again, I appreciate very much the knowledge you have shared with us regarding your business and what you went through. I hope everyone reads your posts!!! You and your family are an inspiration, Conservative!

Thank you!
Sincerely,
Liberty

Thanks Liberty, just saw this because of work - Conservative

[ In Reply To ..]
schedule and it can be days before I can get back on to read these. My family is very diverse, and I come from very tough stock. I had the utmost respect for my grandfather. Many of his cousins fled the communists, as well, but ended up in different areas...some in Canada. Their experiences were so profound, I have begun a family tree along with information I can gather and verify for all family members. When I see the socialists and communists on this board, writing as if they have any idea what they are talking about, I just shake my head. They rant and rave they do not want to be called communists or socialists, but if they are so proud of their ideology, why do they run from name? Why do they not have the guts to stand up for what they believe and call it what it is? That blind devotion to an ideology is exactly what put Hilter in power. We all know how badly that ended, and not just for the Jews, if someone bothers to delve into what others faced under communism and socialism in Poland, Ukraine, Germany, France, Italy. It is an evil cancer. It is pretty clear from the posts that appear on this board, those trying to trumpet the cause of communists and socialists have no idea what they are talking about, let alone what would happen to them and those they love, or where those social structures lead. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink.

Very interesting and informative, Conservative... - Liberty

[ In Reply To ..]
Your experience as a business owner is very enlightening. You are exactly right...if you have never been a business owner, you don't know the impact of government regulations and the state of the economy on a business. I believe you because you speak from experience.

Thank you very much for the information.
Liberty

Good to see you on here - Conservative

[ In Reply To ..]
Thanks for the kind words. I have been pretty much self-employed my entire adult life. I have worked at times for others, but did not want tied to an income, union, or have my salary based on someone else that was only willing to "get by" and live off of everybody else's sweat. If I chose to work extra-hard I wanted the income to show for it. Unfortunately, under Obama that is taking quite a hit. The more I work or make, the more he wants to take to give to those that refuse to.

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