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coach shoots attackers


Posted: Feb 4, 2013

(WXYZ) - Police sources tell 7 Action News that a women's basketball coach from Martin Luther King, Jr. Senior High School shot two men who attacked him as he was walking two basketball players to their cars in the school parking lot. Police sources say the coach was walking the two girls to their cars when two men allegedly approached and one pulled out a gun and grabbed him by his chain necklace. The coach then pulled out his gun and shot both of them, according to sources. The man who shot the attackers was 70 years old, according to police. Read more: http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/man-shot-near-martin-luther-king-jr-high-school-in-detroit#ixzz2JwrPxo9I;

It's also a good thing he didn't accidentally - shoot one of the players.

[ In Reply To ..]

The issue of "home defense" or protection against intruders or assailants may well be misrepresented. A study of 626 shootings in or around a residence in three U.S. cities revealed that, for every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides (Kellermann et al, 1998). Over 50% of all households in the U.S. admit to having firearms (Nelson et al, 1987). In another study, regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and suicide in the home (Dahlberg, Ikeda and Kresnow, 2004). Persons who own a gun and who engage in abuse of intimate partners such as a spouse are more likely to use a gun to threaten their intimate partner. (Rothman et al, 2005). Individuals in possession of a gun at the time of an assault are 4.46 times more likely to be shot in the assault than persons not in possession (Branas et al, 2009). It would appear that, rather than being used for defense, most of these weapons inflict injuries on the owners and their families.

Those figures don't look right. - .. SM

[ In Reply To ..]

According to the Brady Campaign, in 2010 there were 606 deaths from unintentional shootings.  In 2011, there were 14,675 people injured in unintentional shootings that survived.  I have no idea why they used 2 different years.

I'm going to assume the 2010 and 2011 numbers match for the different outcomes; they are probably close.  I'm also going to assume 1 victim for each unintentional shooting.  So, let's say 15,000 unintentional shootings per year, killed or injured.

The various stats from your studies, with the actual reported occurrences I have outlined above, would mean that:

15,000 / 4 = defensive uses near a residence (or 3750).

3750 x 7 = criminal assaults or homicides (or 26,250). 

3750 x 11 = attempted or completed suicides (presumably by gun:  41,250).


I'm not great at math; feel free to correct the above.  Now for figures I've pulled from the web, more than one source: 


The CDC says that in 2010, there were 38,364 suicides, and that there is 1 suicide for every 25 attempts, or over 1 million attempts. Not all of these were gun suicides.  See: CDC suicide datasheet (PDF)


The FBI says in 2010, there were about 778,000 aggravated assaults and 14,748 homicides (not all via gun).  See here and here


Interesting snip from an opinion piece in Forbes:



A National Crime Victimization Study (NCVS) which asked victims if they had used a gun in self-defense found that about 108,000 each year [emphasis mine - Ed.] had done so. A big problem with the NCVS line of survey reasoning, however, is that it only includes those uses where a citizen kills a criminal, not when one is only wounded, is held by the intended victim until police arrive, or when brandishing a gun caused a criminal to flee. Link



The above quote includes the lowest estimate of defensive gun use per year that I have ever read - and I tend to agree with it as being the most accurate of such estimates out there.  


Finally, this is an interesting discussion of the Brady Campaign's numbers about gun ownership and violence, etc.: Link

Here are a few figures from your links - Truthhurts

[ In Reply To ..]


• Suicide was the tenth leading cause of death for all 

ages in 2010.

• There were 38,364 suicides in 2010 in the United States--an average of 105 each day.

• Based on data about suicides in 16 National Violent Death Reporting System states in 2009, 33.3% of 

suicide decedents tested positive for alcohol, 23% for antidepressants, and 20.8% for opiates, including 

heroin and prescription pain killers.

Then from another link (which I have provided):

Suicide by firearm in 2010 was 19,392

Homicide by firearm in 2010 was 11,078

http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/10LCID_Unintentional_Deaths_2010-a.pdf

http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/10LCID_Violence_Related_Injury_Deaths_2010-a.pdf

As for the FBI links, did you happen to note the following:

The estimated number of aggravated assaults in 2010 declined 4.1 percent from 2009 and 14.3 percent when compared with the estimate for 2001. 

A comparison of data for 2001 and 2010 showed that the rate of aggravated assaults in 2010 dropped 20.8 percent. 

Of the aggravated assault offenses in 2010 for which law enforcement agencies provided expanded data, 27.4 percent were committed with personal weapons such as hands, fists, or feet. Slightly more than 20 percent (20.6) of aggravated assaults were committed with firearms, and 19.0 percent were committed with knives or cutting instruments. The remaining 33.1 percent of aggravated assaults were committed with other weapons. (Based on Table 19.) 

Between 2009-2010, aggravated assault by firearm declined by 5.5%, or 8,058 assaults.

Between 2009-2010, number of crimes per 100,000 persons: Robbery by firearm was 127,251, aggravated assault by firearm was 137,857.

2010 State by State Offenses:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl22.xls


• Suicide was the tenth leading cause of death for all ages in 2010.


• There were 38,364 suicides in 2010 in the United States--an average of 105 each day.


• Based on data about suicides in 16 National Violent Death Reporting System states in 2009, 33.3% of suicide decedents tested positive for alcohol, 23% for antidepressants, and 20.8% for opiates, including heroin and prescription pain killers.


Then from another link (which I have provided):


 Suicide by firearm in 2010 was 19,392


Homicide by firearm in 2010 was 11,078


http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/10LCID_Unintentional_Deaths_2010-a.pdf


 http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/10LCID_Violence_Related_Injury_Deaths_2010-a.pdf



As for the FBI links, did you happen to note the following?:
The estimated number of aggravated assaults in 2010 declined 4.1 percent from 2009 and 14.3 percent when compared with the estimate for 2001. 



A comparison of data for 2001 and 2010 showed that the rate of aggravated assaults in 2010 dropped 20.8 percent. 



Of the aggravated assault offenses in 2010 for which law enforcement agencies provided expanded data, 27.4 percent were committed with personal weapons such as hands, fists, or feet.


Slightly more than 20 percent (20.6) of aggravated assaults were committed with firearms, and 19.0 percent were committed with knives or cutting instruments. The remaining 33.1 percent of aggravated assaults were committed with other weapons. 



Between 2009-2010, aggravated assault by firearm declined by 5.5%, or 8,058 assaults.


Between 2009-2010, number of crimes per 100,000 persons: Robbery by firearm was 127,251, aggravated assault by firearm was 137,857.

2010 State by State Offenses link:


http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl22.xls

LOL Seems like someone here doesn't like the truth as - seen by the dislike of the links provided
[ In Reply To ..]
Figures, but hey! Guess the CDC and FBI must lie, too, huh?

Don't want to see the truth, be my guest and keep living a lie.

I see 1 dislike - am I looking in the wrong place?
[ In Reply To ..]
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So, does anyone know what the percentage - for unintentional shootings is?
[ In Reply To ..]
out of all shootings, the straight percentage of those that are accidents?

I can't find a simple answer through all these studies.
Yes! - ..
[ In Reply To ..]
The gun facts are fascinating. As gun ownership has risen in the U.S., some gun crimes have actually declined.

I wasn't assuming that the offenses I listed were all committed with a gun, just the ones I stated as such. Certainly, a lot of people are killed with other weapons, or beaten to death. We can't assume that the death toll would lower if guns weren't available; some countries have a much higher murder rate than ours with a low private gun ownership rate.

There are about 80 million gun owners in the U.S. Despite histrionic statements by the Brady Campaign on the order of "If you have a gun, you're in GREAT DANGER," um, no. We absolutely cannot forget about the 100,000 plus whose lives appear to have been saved by lawful defensive gun use. It is possible that the annual murder toll would be even higher without guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens.

Kudos to the coach - -

[ In Reply To ..]
You don't need to "shoot" down his heroic deed with your "what ifs."

You mean statistics? - okay.

[ In Reply To ..]
.

Yes! Give credit where credit is due. - cet

[ In Reply To ..]
I'm sure the two students he was walking to their cars are more than grateful to him.
According to some on here (sm) - ..
[ In Reply To ..]
... it would have been "better" if he had killed one of the students accidentally. Or not had a gun, and watch them raped.

Because all guns are eeeevil, and the police are always there to protect you, and if they aren't, well too bad.
Wow, I'm going to have to reread - and see where people here
[ In Reply To ..]
wanted them to get killed or raped.

It sure seemed to me they said it was lucky that he didn't accidentally shoot them himself.

But I don't have awesome magical reading powers that have the power to twist reality...fancy reading powers are amazing! You can make it so anyone says ANYTHING!
You can also ASSUME anything you want as many here do (no msg) - Truthhurts
[ In Reply To ..]
.
I assume what people write is what they meant - to say.
[ In Reply To ..]
.
Huh? According to whom? - xyz
[ In Reply To ..]
Who here said any of that? For that matter, who said "all guns are eeeevil, and the police are always there to protect you, and if they aren't, well too bad?"
Creative liberties abound. - RC
[ In Reply To ..]
.
I made a similar speculation to someones post - and it was deleted
[ In Reply To ..]
or "starred out."

It was relation to the Turkey embassy incident.
I saw that deletion. It was a shame. - sm
[ In Reply To ..]
Plus, you were giving your opinion in your post, which I could have sworn was allowed. Since then, I have seen the predictable resurgence of pointed remarks from the right. I think they are in a bit of a honeymoon period, intoxicated by their recent triumph over your deletion.
LOL... come to think of it. You have a - point
[ In Reply To ..]
And I guess it was the intention of the OP to incite since she didn't engage in or continue the conversation after subsequent, more acceptable posts were made.

putting things in perspective - sm

[ In Reply To ..]
I think a coach who is a reserve police officer is a lot different than a teacher or even a regular citizen in this situation who may have minimal training in gun safety. It was definitely good for all (except for the deceased, of course) that he was able to defend himself and the ladies, but I would hardly use this man as the poster child for arming teachers.

I think a more responsible move might have been, since this area seems to be problematic, to either hold school functions during the day or employ an off-duty police or armed security guard. Don't force teachers, coaches, or ordinary citizens into this type of situation.

It should be volunteer only. Not "forced" or - required. nm

[ In Reply To ..]
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