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Instead of criminalizing all mentally ill and creating
Posted: Dec 22, 2012
place combined focus on those two codependent elements that appear in tandem at mass shooting sites? Instead of dismissing the entire population of mentally ill patients, including the majority of them who are NONviolent, as "evil monsters" whose mindsets and motivations are beyond mortal "good-guy" comprehension, why not revisit the concept of a searchable database of gunowners and make THAT available for enforcement purposes? The NRA has thwarted all attempts to establish one for decades.
Along those same lines, why not expand background check criteria to include thorough psychological assessment before purchase, opening up THEIR medical records to the public for inspection and (wait for it....) mandatory drug testing at the owner's expense, the way some GOP/cons want to impose on the "slackers" and "takers?" What about annual license renewals that require yearly psychological assessments and repeated drug tests, like truckers have to submit physical exams that include drug and vision testing, year in and year out? I also think, at the very least, initial safety and performance certification is not too much to ask. After all, we do not set folks loose on our streets who cannot pass both written exams that demonstrate knowledge of the law and field testing for performance proficiency when operating a vehicle.
More efficient and cost effective.
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Without comment otherwise, let's note that most mass - killers are NOT mentally ill. They
[ In Reply To ..]are people doing what they want to.
Many DO suffer from some degree of depression. That's not the kind of insanity most are thinking of in this discussion, but it is a potential component of the profile and an issue people should be consider.
Schizophrenics sometimes start killing everyone around wherever they happen to be in self defense, but that is rare and not the problem we're seeing happen at schools, workplaces, etc.
Although some, only some, may turn out to have a diagnosable personality disorder, again: only a very small percentage of the mass killers we're seeing are actually mentally ill and are unlikely to have been treated for psychiatric illness.
There is NO "snap" that turns an imbalanced person into an insane mass killer--temporarily or otherwise.
The profiles of mass killers unfortunately fit millions of people who never kill anyone. That's because they're "normal"--until they take the step of actually acting. Each of us knows people who fit these profiles.
This means most future mass killers cannot be distinguished from the people around them until and if they start sending out clues of what they plan or are considering doing. They do plan ahead, and the VAST majority, over 90%, start sending out those oblique "you're going to be surprised" type clues, or even very specific "I'm going to kill everyone in my home room" clues.
This also means trying to weed them out through psychologic screening is NOT going to work, since it would weed out millions of outraged voters in the process.
I have to disagree - Fanatical Hypocrite
[ In Reply To ..]While it may be true that many mass killers were never diagnosed prior to their violent outbursts, I would disagree that these people don't have a mental illness. Human beings are social creatures, so to my mind any time one of us decides to slaughter our own community that would be contrary to established behavioral norms, which is all mental illness is.
Some disorders are hard to diagnose or categorize. Illnesses such as intermittent explosive disorder and dissociative disorder can easily go undiagnosed.
Now, of course, that doesn't mean that the mentally ill are all ticking time bombs. The vast majority of the mentally ill pose little more risk than a so-called normal person. Many conditions like generalized anxiety disorder or depression are generally benign and widespread. I don't believe in profiling the mentally ill. Though I like the suggestion of the OP for doing such checks on potential gun owners as long as what kind of illness they have is taken into account. It won't end gun violence, but people who are routinely in dangerous mental states shouldn't have firearms. Same goes for behavioral disorders like drug addicts and alcoholics.
I personally feel, regardless of what their doctor may or may not say, that every mass killer I can personally remember has been ill. Paranoid schizophrenia, intermittent explosive disorder, temporary or permanent dissociative disorder, psychopathy, narcissism, temporary or permanent paranoid delusional state, chemical imbalance, oppositional defiant disorder, antisocial personality disorder, etc. As I've said before, not everyone with these conditions is a killer (most aren't), but every mass killer is mentally ill.
The seeds for mental illness are planted in childhood. Physical, emotional and sexual abuse damage a child forever. Neglect can be just as bad. Abuse and neglect are often created and amplified by poverty and social injustice. They then go untreated because of the cost of treatment, especially the lack of coverage for psychological help. The parents never see their kids because they are out working, especially in single parent homes. So the schools raise the kids and at the schools they face bullying, a constant struggle for grades (because if you don't do well in school say goodbye to any hope you have to "succeed" and become a job creator) and endless peer pressure.
A failing economy, impossible standards and constant judgment have created an environment of extreme pressure. Pressure that a lot of people can't bear. And the best we can offer these kids is a pamphlet on ADHD and a bottle of pills. School, medical and justice systems utterly devoid of humanity.
I see hopelessness as the greatest threat to America right now.
Sad, but simple reality. We just don't want to see that this increase - is an extension of our own behavior as a society.
[ In Reply To ..]We've become not just more desensitized and accepting of violence, we've become more violent. Inevitably, there will be those who move beyond what most people consider normal, "normal" itself being a range.
We can argue semantics and disagree all day long. We can agree these people are not emotionally healthy. BUT, almost none are what we used to call insane, either before or during their massacres. They know exactly what they are doing.
Lanza was willing to die, almost certainly planned to. Many experts feel his type of action is a hyped-up form of murder-suicide, or just suicide, such as the hackneyed jumping out of a highrise or off a freeway overpass and only possibly taking out innocent victims. A way of making a bigger angry statement on the way out, getting more attention, sharing more pain.
Also, the sad simple fact is, that being uncaring, hurtful, even malicious are just different ways people can be NORMAL. Just for instance, approximately 1 out of every 20 people does not have a conscience. This is a normal variant. Some psychologists theorize that evolution produced some to enhance the chances of survival of societies. We all of us run across a number of this particular subset of people (at some risk to ourselves--they're not nice) each week in the workplace, attending church and social functions, in counseling sessions (they're drawn to work that allows them to manipulate people), shopping, in our own families, and so on. And they're only one version of being normal in a not-nice way.
I would agree that "normal" occupies a range... - sm
[ In Reply To ..]...but mass murder is not on it. Sorry, but "what we used to call insane" is still insane, and shooting children is more than just a little step beyond merely being uncaring, hurtful, and malicious.
Imagine if we had very specialized intervention in our schools and communities to identify and avert these terrible episodes of violence. I don't buy into the idea that the only way to safeguard our children and our society is to take up weapons.
Certainly, erecting a high wall with barbed wire would be more cost-effective than armed guards. Oh. Does that sound over the top?
Please re-read. I didn't say mass murder was normal. - And, no, murder may be "insane," but
[ In Reply To ..]murderers mostly not. I'm not talking some kind of "truthiness" here. People who study mass murder have found that the vast majority of perpetrators are sane and fully aware of what they are doing. They intend to kill because they want to kill. "Crazy" all right, but not crazy.
how can someone want to die AND kill - and not be mentally ill.
[ In Reply To ..]...
Good question. And, how can millions want to kill - and not be mentally ill? nm
[ In Reply To ..]x
I agree with you but what about gang members and kids - backwards typist
[ In Reply To ..]that think solving problems with guns is the norm?
They've been trying for years to get through to the kids but it doesn't seem to have worked. They'll shoot someone who looks at them wrong.
The problem with the above is also that the guns they use are usually not bought legally. They're stolen or bought on the black market.
In our county, if a gun is stolen, the owner only has 24 hours to report it or else they will also face charges. It's working here.
Just this morning on Meet the Press, Chuck Schumer stated "If Wayne LaPierre thinks guns don't kill people, he's wrong." Well, if a gun is sitting on a table and someone walks by, does that gun shoot that person? No. It's the person behind the gun that shoots a person. That statement was a little off the wall. I will be watching the whole segment this afternoon to see the rest of his statements because This Week is only on once, whereas MTP is on 4-5 times between now and tomorrow morning.
Name one - nm
[ In Reply To ..]nm
A database for what? - Tired mt
[ In Reply To ..]What would be accomplished by knowing who owns guns? That is, if you could even get people to comply with that. The criminals wouldn't.
Do you think this would enable you to somehow predict who's going to shoot up a school? It must be a gun owner? It could be somebody who wasn't a gun owner 2 days ago, but is today.
Exactly. The OP meant well, but was totally - unrealistic. nm
[ In Reply To ..]nm
What if they don't use a gun? What then? - anon
[ In Reply To ..]nm
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