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To focus on guns is to miss the issues in Charlotte

Posted: Jun 19, 2015

Anyone who wishes to accomplish what Roof did has many ways of doing so. The instrumentality is irrelevant, but it does provide a convenient illusion that we're addressing the problem while deflecting attention from the real heart of the matter.

;

Sorry - I meant Charleston. - nm

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x

agreed but...... - nana7

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How do you fix the heart of the matter? How do you fix hatred and a complete lack of respect for a human life? HOw do you fix some feeling entitled to be taken care of? That is what is going on in this country. Don't like what I have to say boom shoot you dead. We see the anger and hatred on this board because opinions are different. Can you imagine what would happen if we all were sitting in a room together? Anymore there is no tolerance for different thinking or opinions.

Until we put faith back in government, schools, and every aspect of our lives it is only going to get worse.

The problem is spiritual. Guns are just the tool used by - a wicked evil soul. Unless the spiritual

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is addressed, the method used to commit heinous acts doesn't matter.

Racism was worse when faith was - more prevalent

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I would argue that the religious right and conservativism frequently fires up racism, if nothing else from socioeconomic perspectives.

Guns are an easier and manageable topic. They are physical tools that people use to commit atrocities. They can be regulated and limited.

Racism is not as easily effected.

Instead of bringing about more racism with more hate-filled rhetoric, - try bringing about a solution.

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You may find you're a happier person, too, in the process.

you are "reading" hate-filled rhetoric - no hate present

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vast disappointment and weariness with the constant barrage of twisting by the right wing conservatives, but not hate.

I had to go back and read my comment--I don't see hate, you "read" hate.

As to being happier. Sure, firm conviction that everyone is perfectly fine and wonderful and ignoring the situation would be happier...just isn't reality. A lot of people live in a nonreality state and think they are happy.

I think they need to stop and realize who and what they are and what they promote. There will be a defining moment for them, someday, hopefully soon enough.

As to trying to do something, I do, everyday. Here, the point is awareness. It is the first step.

I agree, this is not about "war" on religion - Empirelady

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This was about racism, pure and simple, literally out of the terrorist's mouth. This had absolutely nothing to do with Christianity (aside from KKK and Neonazi sick brands of it). There is racism so deep in this country, it boggles my mind that so many think it isn't so. Of course, the hatred spewed out from media like Fox News and others like them hasn't helped one bit. The devil didn't make this kid do it; generational haters who pass this sickness down to their children and fomenters of hate like these sick media people are responsible.

The words I read... - sm

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Your Words: "I would argue that the religious right and conservativism frequently fires up racism, if nothing else from socioeconomic perspectives."

Yeah, the religious right causes all this. What's that you say, Al? Jesse? MSNBC? Rachel? Ed? Chris?

I rest my case. Again, be a part of the solution, not the problem. Peace out.

Sorry, I don't do MSNBC much, unless I - am in a particularly bad mood

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There are a lot more that fully accept the Fox/Limbaugh way than accept MSNBC. (as those in the rating war conversations will assure) I remember stumbling upon MSNBC, one of my first times, (I think it was O'Donnell) and I thought "wow, there is a left hate channel just like Fox on the right."

regulated for the law abided citizen - nana7

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but I bet you if I wanted to buy a gun today I could have one in my hand in 5 minutes just like the criminals and thugs out there. The government wants to tie my hands to own a gun but they are readily available to bad people with bad intentions.

Who is going to regulate the illegal guns on the street? That is part of the problem.

As far as limiting guns I don't see the NRA going for that one either and their pockets are so deep neither will the government.

As far as religious right and conservativism frequently fires up racism I would need proof that is true. Maybe you could shed some insight into your statement.

This could be a start--you really have to be - open to seeing it-not that you are not

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but it is a weird thing. Sometimes it is subtle, but it is being pointed out and now it is more obvious.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/06/18/call-the-charleston-church-shooting-what-it-is-terrorism/

Big difference between religion and spirituality. - Julia Sugarbaker

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And I personally blame politicians and their media these days for revived racism, not the bible itself or faith or even religion, look at Pope Francis.

The bible doesn't say anything negatively about other races, only positives like Good Samaritan story, the Canaanite woman's daughter Christ healed, the Roman centurian's servant Christ healed. Some people have cherry-picked it as such, but it's always taken out of context. But if the bible actually were racist, we gentiles would've never been included in Christianity, only messianic Jews - we whiteys we're "adopted" in :)

I think what you speak of instead is nationalist-style politicians who use religion as a cover for a multitude of their own sins, twisting faith into religious zealotry/extremism and prejudice, stemming out of their own fears of threat to their own power.
PS - Love that Canaanite woman story, btw. Very early in his ministry, she follows Christ around calling out to him to heal her daughter.

The disciples try to shoo her away, but he talks to her and says: "Woman, you're a Canaanite, it is not good to take children's bread and throw it to the dogs."

She appealed to his logic and compassion and said, "Yes, lord, but even the dogs deserve crumbs of their master's table."

I was confused by this story, as a child. Every other story doesn't depict him as racist, so what was up with that answer and how he treated her?

Many people say Christ was testing her faith and maybe he was, in a way. But I also question instead whether it was because it was very early in his ministry, he was very young, just preaching to the Jews and thought the Canaanites simply wouldn't be interested and it would be pointless, it'd be like "casting pearls before swine as depraved men" because non-Jews mocked him even more than Jews did - so he wanted to see if she really meant it or she was wasting his time. The passage also admits he was just...tired.

Another indication of where Jesus learned/grew in spiritual wisdom himself is when he told his mother at the wedding he thought it "wasn't yet the right time" to turn water into wine, but did it anyway and it actually started the PR ball rolling for his ministry:)

Jesus may have been perfect as far as sin, but he WAS young once, and he was for all intents and purposes - born of a human. He probably made human mistakes without sinning, and God as a parent let him learn some things on his own, trusting he would grow in wisdom from experience as he went along - particularly more about what it was like to be one of us weird humans :)

For those who I'm sure will say this is "blasphemous", you got a better explanation for this story, as well as his reluctance to turn water into wine for his mom but doing it anyway?

Absolutely, but it is what it is--people do more - media than true biblical study/church/spirtuality

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I would remove Fox if I could. Let people turn back to spirituality.

But the sin of superiority and control, economically and politically, is winning and fed by Fox.

As to all of the Bible reference, I have taken a break, too much hypocrisy in the "church" people I have run into...this is not functional for me in society. I have respect for those who wish to go there, so long as they do not spew hate as a result or justify hatred with the Bible, but I don't care to share their experience right now. My spirituality, right and wrong, are just fine without Bible affirmation.

That's cool, I get that. I actually "went atheist" for a long time, same reason - Julia Sugarbaker

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I'm sorry, didn't mean to push, just trying to say not all Christians or people of faith are like that. I sure as heck am not always the best Christian example. But some of us are aware we all sin and fall short of the glory of God, others just like to act like they don't and were saved by works rather than grace:/

But just so's ya know, God would be big enough to handle your disbelief. He understands that human free will has made it difficult to separate their behavior from his, particular those of us who had less than perfect parents in his name.

But he's patient, he's loving, he doesn't demand his own way. The reason he sounds different in the Old Testament vs the New is because it's like he was talking to a baby civilization in the OT, rather than toddlers later in the NT.

At first, it was "No, don't do that" because that's all they could fathom. Later, it was "don't do that because you'll hurt others or yourself and we love them, right?"

Sometimes I wonder if he prefers it when smart people question him and then come back, they tend to be better and more honest witnesses for him (if the prodigal son story is any indication:)

CS Lewis is good example of that, if you're ever interested again, I highly recommend his stuff. He was a former atheist that sat out to prove God doesn't exist and requestioned God after the death of his beloved wife, Joy. His books are like an intellectual's guide to faith.

Because in the end, whether you believe in big bang or big god (or both like me), both theories still require us to exercise a certain amount of faith because neither can be proven.

If you've ever read my prior comments, you know I'm a big fan of proof, too, so it was very hard for me to believe in something I couldn't prove.

Then one day I said, "Wait a minute, we can't prove love exists either. We feel it, but on SPECT scan images, it lights up the brain like chocolate, yet we know the difference, why?"

So perhaps it's not faith OR science, or brain OR heart - perhaps it is both and we NEED both - and what if faith is science we just don't yet have a scientific explanation for yet?

No scientific explanation, and it still can exist - just like we know the feeling of love exists separately from a chocolate high, despite it showing up in our brains on imaging scans in very much the same way:)

Obviously little to no background check was - required, or that creep wouldnt - sm

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have been allowed to have that gun. Yes, bad people will always try to find a way to gain access to guns, but why make it any easier for them?

issue in Charlotte - phatty duwop

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The many ways of doing what Roof did don't compare to a gun, which is why that is the weapon of choice for many of these terrorists. The gun is the ultimate bully! Wonder who sold a gun to a 21 year old kid that had been in trouble with the law and had been banned from a mall? Other people had to know something was really wrong with this kid. Nobody just suddenly jumps up and talks about killing people. Bet there were warning signs all over the place. Deplorable!

Have they determined whether this was his - "birthday" gun or a different gun

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removes the question of where he got it if it was the birthday gun. It was a gift and no checks made, other than the bad parenting check.

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