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To Liberals/Progressives interested in the economy: (sm)

Posted: Oct 26, 2009

Don't know if any of you have ever watched the "Morning Meeting" with Dylan Rattigan on MSNBC (9:00 a.m. Eastern time), but I would highly suggest watching it. He is very angry about what's going on in the economy (from banks "too big to fail" to the "public option"), but instead of bashing Obama, he refers to the culprit as "the government," since we all know when this really started and how many administrations are really involved. Rattigan used to be on CNBC but is now on MSNBC with his new show.

His show has been an eye-opener for me, and I hope if you watch it, it may be the same for you.

;

we all also know.. - dnh

[ In Reply To ..]
But we also all know who has made it worse, much much worse. We all know who has build up a deficit from which we will never recover, one which is larger than any in history or actually all of history combined and who it is that just keeps on spending like a kid in a candy store. Yup, the goverment may be the culprit, but guess who is the government now? Guess who promised change. Geez, people thought he meant change for the better? Can you be any more wrong?

I agree that Obama should not have continued Bush policy. (sm) - Nikki

[ In Reply To ..]
I think these crooks should be allowed to fall flat on their faces.

That being said, this is why I addressed my post to "progressive" people, people who are interested in what happened and how it happened.

There's no room for the blame game here, especially since it occurred over two administrations.

The fault lies with the perpetrators (and hiring the foxes to guard the chicken houses wasn't too bright, either).

FACTUALLY wrong - me

[ In Reply To ..]
I'd suggest you look at where the DEFICIT was when Bushwarmongerer TOOK office, and where it was when he FINALLY exited.

Or would that be too much work for you?

Hey, the economy was going great until last 2 years when - dems tookover Congress.nm

[ In Reply To ..]
nm

Truth about the economy - NJ

[ In Reply To ..]
For those who would like to see me upset, talking about credit default swaps, lack of regulation/oversight, and Wall Street lobbyists will do it every time! ;)

The truth is that Wall Street and the financial world skirted regulations with credit default swaps and made TONS of money on that before the house of cards crashed.

Some people like to blame the ones who have lost their homes. "Shouldn't have tried to own a home," they say. Some try to blame the government. "Lending institutions have to lend to the poor, the government makes them do it," they say. These people are looking in the wrong direction. They watched the magician's right hand while his left grabbed their wallet.

The rich made money out of selling bad mortgages to people, then not allowing them to refinance as they were led to believe they could. These bad mortgages were sold and resold and INSURED so there was a no-lose situation for the money makers. Except it got out of hand, being such a good money maker, and everyone wanted a piece of the action. More and more bad mortgages were sold to people and eventually the mess just imploded.

If you can't catch him when his show is aired, there are some archives of him on YouTube. Thanks for the heads up on his show, Nikki. Nothing like a good rant to start the day!

NJ

question for you - cj

[ In Reply To ..]
And what would you say to those who bought million dollars homes on middle-class incomes? Do you see no fault there at all? Do you hold blameless the govt entities that prompted lenders to make these super mortgages to people who didn't have a hope of ever being able to pay them?

Why were they eligible? - NJ

[ In Reply To ..]
Someone whose job it was to sell mortgages had to have told those people, sure, you can do it! Someone who was supposed to be trusted to know these things said, yah, you qualify for this mortgage and can refinance a few years down the road!

It was a bad product marketed to make rich people richer.

Blaming the little guy is like blaming sick people for the insurance mess in this country.

NJ

exactly, nj - Tracy

[ In Reply To ..]
As if the little guy bamboozled the banks. For one thing, home prices had risen to astronomical prices and if you wanted to buy a house at the time those were the prices. Mtg brokers were telling people they will be able to refinance to bring the payment down.

Also cj, did you ever stop to think that people bought houses they could afford at the time - but then they LOST THEIR JOBS and couldn't pay.

well CJ does have a point - me

[ In Reply To ..]
We can't give the borrowers a complete pass - on some level they had to have realized there WAS a risk of default, and in these cases it was a serious default - not like a small credit card balance, but hundreds of thousands of dollars.

The mistake the other side tends to make is that homeowners who defaulted are somewhat UNcaring about it - even gaming the system. Sure in a minority of cases, but the vast majority of those who defaulted tried REALLY hard to avoid it, and there was no plan in place to bridge gaps... and who feel terrible about their role in the crisis.

sorry.. - cj

[ In Reply To ..]
I am sorry if I was misunderstood or didn't state it well. It was not a blame but was indeed a question. But if you want to go to the blame game, there is plenty to go around. we can blame the lenders because they did try to sell people the pie in the sky, but in the end the person who holds the mortgage and is supposed to make the payments has to say "okay, how will I pay this much for a mortgage if I only make ___?" In the end the borrower has to be able to determine what they can pay, and if they don't plan for contingencies, they do hold some responsibility for it. When we bought our last home our lender told us "you can afford _____." We knew they were full of it and told them so. Then we went out shopping for a home within our price range. we also planned for the fact that if our job situation should change, which it did when the company my husband worked for closed, we would have to be able to hold it together somehow. We made sure our mortgage would be afforable if only one of us was working. It was not fun but we did it. I am not heartless. I understand that many, many, many people lost their homes because of the job market, etc., but I also know that a lot of other people just didn't use their heads about what they could afford. You cannot just blame the lenders here and let the borrowers off scott free. We all see people living way beyond their means, and that is not the fault of the lenders.

What they were told - NJ

[ In Reply To ..]
One of my cousins had a balloon mortgage. I got kinda worried about her when this crap started to hit the fan. She told me she had already managed to remortgage and was locked in at a decent rate *whew*.

Unfortunately, many of the people who were sold the same types of mortgages bought in too close to the collapse and banks/mortgage companies were no longer refinancing/remortgaging people. The crap got deeper and deeper, and when the economy went south people were losing their jobs to boot. No way to pay the mortgage after that for sure.

You can find idiots all over. No doubt some of those people who lost their homes were idiots. I think there was a higher percentage of idiots and crooks in the financial business, though.

Heck, housing in many parts of the country took a big hit. What about someone who bought a $100-$200k home, got transferred, and had to sell the home at a loss? No money to buy a new home, maybe not even enough to pay off the old one. That wasn't foreseeable by the average Joe, but it doesn't mean s/he was abusing the system.

Nope, I'll continue to lay the blame at the feet of the rich and greedy who took part in the credit default swaps. They wanted money for nothing and ended up being the major cause for this recession.

NJ

Million dollar homes? Seriously? - me

[ In Reply To ..]
I know you asked this of NJ but I have to point out that the VAST MAJORITY of these cases *did not* involve 'million dollars homes' - nothing like overstating the facts.

It's true many "overbought" - but they often did so *based on their anticipated earnings* which often did not materialize - many just lost jobs.

Here's the deal BOTH PARTIES TOOK A RISK. It would have been SMART if the financial industry could have seen if you sell too much JUNK product to people who MIGHT default, eventually the jig blows up! Once enough good people realized they had NO WAY OUT of a bad deal, they walked away.

Here's what I mean: Notice how there are 'if you lose your job we'll make your payment for you' offers all over the place? Well the financial world has finally gotten a clue - MOST people don't want to default IF there is a plan in place to bridge a temporary financial crisis such as a job loss, those people will not default.

So we can point fingers in *MANY* directions, but we have to stop pretending there is only ONE direction to point them in...

Rich defaulting on mortgages. - Smitty

[ In Reply To ..]
It seems that the rich are defaulting on their mortgages quicker than the average homeowner as a strategic financial move.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Banking/YourCreditRating/the-rich-bail-faster-on-mortgages.aspx

crash - Tracy

[ In Reply To ..]
As the economy affected me severely, I have spent a lot of time researching and trying to figure out what happened. You just summed up very succinctly exactly what I discovered.

You should post that everywhere you can - your blog, facebook, etc. for people who are misinformed.

You're welcome, NJ. (sm) - Nikki

[ In Reply To ..]
Today, for example, he again suggested that people close their accounts with these "too big to fail" banks and go back to their local banks. Give your community your business and not some Wall Street giant. I happen to think that's a great idea (though, fortunately, I don't have any accounts with these "big" banks). I recently heard that Obama made a "sliver" of the TARP available to these small community banks. Although I believe it should have been more than just a "sliver," I believe this was a good idea from the Obama administration.

I think his show is great and would recommend it to anyone who isn't just interested in playing the blame game regarding the Obama administration, considering the majority of this stuff happened during the Bush administration. It's completely unproductive. Rattigan blames the perpetrators, calls it as he sees and isn't partisan in his disgust and outrage.

I wish Obama would just let them fall flat on their faces the next time they beg for a bailout, especially with record bonuses again slated for 2009.

Truth about C rapitalism - me

[ In Reply To ..]
Sorry know you may not want to hear it, but what's BEHIND the 'bad mortgage' scam is UNfettered greed.

UNTIL we recognize that capitalism HAS NO conscious and that as an ECONOMIC system, it can be changed, we are bound to continue the death spiral -

Too many people confuse capitalism with freedom and/or free enterprise. TAIN'T the same, and we can have the latter without the former.

I'm very interested in this theory. Care to enumerate/expand? - Sheeples

[ In Reply To ..]

What specifically did you have a question about? - Me

[ In Reply To ..]
I am all about thinking outside the box - I am not an economic expert of any kind...

I just think we think in black and white in this country too much - the solution is often in the gray area.

You couldn't be more right on, "me" - chickpea

[ In Reply To ..]
Your assessment is so close to the truth, but the "crapitalism" lovers on this board will think you're anti-American, because they think the two are synonymous. Unfortunately, only the truly enlightened recognize this as a cold, hard fact. The greed that is rampant in this country is what is taking it down. Thanks for your bravery for speaking the ugly truth.

Well thank YOU chickpea! - me

[ In Reply To ..]
Love the name BTW...

My position is based on facts (as you obviously know) and common sense.

How can a system which *depends upon* people overspending survive for the long-term? People may think we have 'survived long-term' with this system, but that would incorrect in a number of ways.

This statement - Sheeples

[ In Reply To ..]
"Too many people confuse capitalism with freedom and/or free enterprise. TAIN'T the same, and we can have the latter without the former."

Was that supposed to be an answer? - Me

[ In Reply To ..]
If so, it's very vague.

I really don't understand to expand on -do you believe that capitalism equates to freedom in the US?

No, I'm sorry. My DSL connection has been whacked out and it - Sheeples

[ In Reply To ..]
posted in the wrong place. What I was wondering is if you could explain your thoughts on that statement.

I'll throw a few thoughts out to the mix right now as it has been a day to ponder.

First one has to define freedom. Is that economical freedom or personal right freedom? Do they intertwine? I think they do. As well, in order to have freedom, we have to realize that we must be held accountable for our mistakes made in freedom. If that means we go in debt, lose a home, lose a car, whatever...that's the price of said freedom.

It's a "numbers game" or "balancing act." Some come into the freedom game better off than others, but the beauty of it is that we are not KEPT in that situation (i.e. caste-like..India-style).

Tough choices and balance. We can't expect to have freedom w/o some choices being taken away.

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