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In the old days Middle Class people could hope to move up the ranks but now

Posted: Apr 10, 2011

The graphs are showing that those in the high-income categories are doing better than ever, but the ranks of middle class are not. In fact, many are dropping down into the poverty area. Lack of jobs would have to be the biggest reason for that, but the fact that we, in the middle, have the responsibility of paying for those below and those above us. Those in the poverty level have no money and pay no taxes. Those above us have so much money that they have expensive tax attorneys, tax planners, CPAs, tax dodges, tax rebates---ever get a tax rebate? I haven't, but those in the higher ranks (incuding corporations) get them every day.

This is where real change could take place, if each and every one of us who has money would pay his or her fair share.

I'm personally exhausted with paying so much in taxes, only to read of still another tax rebate for a big corporation, still another executive who gets a 4 BILLION DOLLAR bonus and has loopholes big enough to drive his yacht through. I'm all for him having that yacht, as long as he pays taxes too. When I get to stop paying my taxes, I'll be very happy for him not to pay his. Until then, we all need to pitch in, even if we're rich enough to afford loophole coverage (I guess that's the kind of insurance the tax attorneys/consultants provide).

;

The middle class aren't moving because - of the economy...a lot

[ In Reply To ..]
are not working, thanks to the preceding administration and the current one who made the former one look mild. You should be glad corporations are doing well or there would be a lot more unemployed, since corporations are the largest employer as a group in the country....right?

Please stop with the expensive tax attorneys yada yada. Get on the flat tax bandwagon and there is no need for tax attorneys yada yada because there are no loopholes to exploit.

If you don't like that route, then stop blaming the corporations for taking advantage of loopholes provided to them by your Congress, Democrats too, they have had control of the Ways and Means Committee (who formulate tax law) for the last 44 of 55 years).

I know telling the truth does not play to the socialist mantra, however, it does not change the fact that it is the truth.

No tax loopholes with the flat tax? Right! LOL - They just won't report income

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The expensive consultants will find a way to call INCOME some kind of INVESTMENT, and people will smile and think how wonderful and compassionate of them to invest in their business instead of paying taxes like the rest of us do. All those jobs they were supposed to create with the money they didn't pay in taxes plus the tax rebates (CORPORATE WELFARE) they received to create jobs, didn't happen. America is still pretty much jobless. The only way that will change is if we start a big program for infrastucture, building bridges and roads, to put people back to work again. That will create not only the physical labor kinds of jobs, but will increase some clerical jobs as well.

Do away with the corporations then (largest - employers in the US).

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Just send all our manufacturing offshore. What is your answer then? If you think no matter what is changed they are going to find a way around it, then maybe you want them just shut down. When that happens, and all those jobs go away, we become a third world country.

Geeezzz.

They could just pay their fair share like the rest of us. - Pretty simple solution

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We all have to do it and they should too, or fix it so nobody pays any taxes and let bridges collapse, air become polluted, and potholes eat cars.

you contradict yourself...if you say there are - all these loopholes

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and no matter what we do we can't stop them from using them, even if we do away with them they are going to find a way to get around it....then how in the heck do you propose getting them to "pay their fair share?"

And again, stop lamenting how corporations get away with everything and blame Congress (both sides) who grease the tracks for it.

And another thing...honestly....corporations are the backbone of our economy. Biggest employer...and yes, it does trickle down from them to their suppliers to their suppliers' suppliers, etc. Without corporations, we are a third world country. And lucky for us, they are private corporations and not run by the government or we would be Cuba.

So buzz words and catch phrases do NO good. You gripe about loopholes, we say close them and you say that won't work. You know that everyone (including you) is going to take advantage of every tax break they can.

So please....what is your suggestion if closing loopholes won't work?

And also, you speak in way too broad terms. There are thousands of corporations in this country who DO pay taxes.

Obama just put a the CEO of GE on the payroll....the same GE who offshores half of its work and who got tax refund this year.

So please...what IS your answer?

Yes, there are many corporations who don't abuse the tax system - You are right

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You are also right that I sound as if there is nothing that can fix the problem of those who don't.

The flat tax is the best answer if they can find a way to make sure that income is actually reported and not sent overseas to be stashed somewhere out of sight. If they can do that somehow, we've got a system that I think would work.

You are right that I have been negative about just saying nothing will work. Something has to work. Maybe the flat tax is our best chance, and yes, there are some corporations that actually do pay their fair share. That is also an overstatement on my part. I'm just angry at those who don't, because I strongly believe that much of our budget problems would disappear if the cheaters among the corporations would do their fair share. How's that? Better?

Much. Closing the loopholes would go a long - way and would make

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cheating a whole lot easier. The coffers would also help if individuals didn't hide income too, but they do. It would also help if EVERYONE who had income paid SOMETHING, and that is what a flat tax would do. As to moving money offshore, if they do not have an operation that is offshore where the money made is actually made offshore...that is against the law right now. So if the IRS was doing its job, they would be all over them for that. You can't take money made in this country and funnel it to a foreign country not to have to pay taxes on it. However, you can get around that like many MTs did in years past...2 years of in Saudi Arabia making tax free dollars that could not be taxed when they brought it back here made a nice nest egg for some.

I do think we need to get competitive with the rest of the world as far as our corporate tax rates anyway...we are second highest in the world, and that encourages offshoring.

Thanks for the discussion!

I agree about getting competitive on corporate tax rates too - See message

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We'll have to cut spending. That's the point of contention, about where we can cut. We spend too much. That's a fact. I even accept that we may have to take from entitlements. My whole point is, not just from the vulnerable who can't speak for themselves, for whatever reason---age, disability, ignorance, etc. I guess I'd rather go after the big guys first, mainly because they have more and we'll get faster results. Then let's look for ways to stop abuse of entitlement programs. We could probably do both of those things at the same time, without just taking a slash-and-burn approach to entitlements. Does that make sense?

It does...but with a deficit of 14 trillion, going - after the "big guys" is

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is not going to fix it. And frankly, what I have seen proposed by Ryan (the only congressperson willing to deal with it at the moment) is not slash and burn. Medicare is a failed program, period. It is fraught with fraud (nobody denies this) and is unsustainable as it is. It has to be fixed. No amount of throwing more money at it is going to fix it. What Ryan suggested is not what the people posting that he wants to kill seniors AT ALL. He merely suggested privatizing it so that private insurance companies, through a government exchange, provide the coverage and the government help with premiums. Much like what Obama suggested with Obamacare. Cannot for the life of me figure out why liberals loved it in Obamacare but Ryan is going to kill seniors with it.

It is that kind of silliness and ya-ya-ing back and forth that got us where we are right now...that and ignoring the deficit like it was going to go away on its own...which seems to be what the current administration thinks, sending a 1.3 trillion dollar budget to congress while we are 14 trillion in the hole.

I'm not one of the people sayng Ryan wants to kill senior citizens - but I am against privitizing it because of my expe

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My own experience with private insurance has been a disaster. Anything at all would be better than nothing. If we go back to privitization or a voucher system, I will be back in the same boat as before, not able to have health coverage. Sure, those vouchers will cover some, but imagine what it's going to be like going to a new doctor. They will know that (1) your voucher isn't going to go very far if you get sick; (2) you are old; therefore you will get sick; (3) you are old; therefore you probably won't have the money to pay the difference, so we aren't accepting new voucher patients right now. That's the way I see it.

The middle class aren't moving because politicians - like Ryan wants to get rid of them.nm

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nm

That is ridiculous. Cna you support any of - that with fact, or is this

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the obligatory drive-by no-substance slam post?

Yup, I think that's it.

Just listen to his budget plans, with another cut - in taxes for the rich. He wants to (sm)

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get rid of the middle class.

The more people go on about - no1joe

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the "socialist" mantra and the like, the more people are starting to doubt the credibility of those who use that catch phrase. You're showing that you've been stuffed with propaganda.

http://general.mtstars.com/268040.html

And please leave out the "And I'm not directing that toward you. I know you keep yourself well informed" part. That doesn't apply to you.

I prefer "kind" and "compassionate, but you can call me socialist if you want - I care about those most vulnerable in our society

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I'm not ashamed that I care about those who have less than I have. If that makes me a socialist, so be it. I'll take it as a compliment.

That's great. But if that translated into action - there would be no need

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for entitlement programs because you and the rest of the left who care about the poor and downtrodden would pony up funds to take care of them out of the goodness of your hearts without the government having to take it away from you and distribute it who they see fit.

The fact that entitlement programs are necessary proves that Democrats/socialists/whatever the name of the day is are NOT willing to do that, however, they ARE willing to extract if from all the rest of us and divvy it up how they see fit.

And don't even go there about republicans...well documented that conservatives give more to charitable organizations than liberals.

Just how long do you think entitlements would last if it were up to liberals to do it without being compelled to?

I'd give them two weeks max.

Let me tell you something about that so-called Republicans contribute more - See message

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We see it every day. People with money are able to avoid paying their taxes, but love to proudly have a benefit occasionally and make a donation. They come out ahead, but look really good with the PR they get, pictures with celebrities at the charity parties, etc. I know how that works. Been there.

Also, I do contribute. The Salvation Army is one of my favorites, among others.

I am sure you do....but how long do you think - entitlement programs

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if all the liberals in the country had to give that money without being compelled to through taxation. Say tax money was stopped being funneled into entitlements today, and the government said if everyone will write a check for 5% of your income monthly to the treasury for entitlement spending, how many liberals do you think would freely give that 5% if it was up to them to write the check?

I rest my case.

I give also, regularly...and I did not say Republicans, I said conservatives. The two are not necessarily the same.

Yes, I would and I have given over and above the tax required by law - and volunteered my time as well

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I won't get into the discussion about who gives more, because it's pointless and besides, you can manipulate number and facts to make statistics anything you want. There's always more to the story.

Oh I'm sure, just as I am sure that if - entitlements depended on

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liberals writing a check out of their own accounts instead of the government doing it out of tax money, entitlements would have died a LONG time ago.

Maybe I wasn't clear in my message - Let me try again

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I think I may have worded things incorrectly. I didn't pay more taxes than the law required. I did contribute to charity. I also volunteered my time as well.

The thing about entitlements is that - sm

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they are ENTITLEMENTS, meaning people receiving Social Security and Medicare are ENTITLED to collect some of what they paid into their entire lives.

I paid into the system for 40 years and then became disabled. I waited more than 2 years before I was granted a hearing, the judged apologized for that and then ruled in favor of me. I had booksful of medical records of lab tests, MRIs, ERCPs and my dozen hospitalizations in two years' time.

At first, I felt worthless, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that I AM entitled to this money, after having faithfully paying into the system for more than 40 years.

Sometimes "entitlements" are exactly that: entitlements. And when you're disabled, you've reached the end of the line. Social Security is a safety net that Republicans don't want the "lesser" of us to have.

This is my safety net. Not one of you knows if/when you might become disabled, yet some of you will vote Republican and ensure you lose yours.

One thing that makes our country is great is the fact that - we have safety nets

[ In Reply To ..]
Your message is excellent. While I'll agree that we need to get rid of fraud and abuse (doctors and hospitals charging for exams they didn't do---and I've seen one nurse who made a practice of doing that) (crooks who make a living abusing those systems, don't pay their taxes, etc.,) I am very happy that we have safety nets. In fact, I'm very pleased to have the opportunity to pay my fair share of taxes. I don't want to pay more than my fair share and I sure don't like it when others find fancy techniques to avoid paying theirs, but these are good things. We need our safety nets. Nobody likes to think that they may be next in line to use one of those safety nets. Nobody also wants to be on one of those long bridges or interstates that happens to crumble and fall. There are reasons for safety nets. They sure need to be fixed, but let's not allow them to be dismantled and distorted to the point where we are like other countries, with the super rich and the homeless, hungry masses out in the streets.

BRAVO!! Great post. Thank you. - nm

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nm

Ridiculous statement. Care to back it up? - Mississippi, the poorest state in the nation

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as well as very conservative, gives more to charity than other states, per capita and dollar earned. That is not some rich person holding one benefit. Conservatives do give more--normal conservatives. It is well documented, but nice try. I am glad you donate--good for you! I donate, too. Maybe you should try talking your liberal friends into doing so, as well. My conservative friends already do (most of them, anyway).

Question....if entitlements were funded by - voluntary contribution

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rather than through taxation and redistribution...do you think liberals would give freely of their own accord to support them? I am thinking...no. Conservatives always have given more to charitable causes than liberals.

So on the face of it, it looks like, again...do as we say, but not as we do...and it is not humanitarian on the part of the DNC, it is a vote-getter. Otherwise they would have been giving to the poor African Americans in this country BEFORE they got the vote. Even more ironic is the fact that they fought it tooth and nail until the Republicans got enough votes to pass it in the 60's.

Funny how that happened.

That is why I get SO tired of hearing liberals cry out for the poor when they didn't give a whit about the poor blacks until they became a voting block.

And due to revisionist history, we don't hear much about that in history class anymore.

And please don't tell me that the liberals of today are more like the conservatives of that day....LOL.

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