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Why universal is gaining support, critics.


Posted: Jul 19, 2017

income — monthly cash payments from the government to every individual, working or not, with no strings attached — is gaining traction, thanks in part to endorsements from Silicon Valley celebs. Some see it as a way to compensate for the traditional jobs with benefits that will be wiped out by robotics, artificial intelligence, self-driving vehicles, globalization and the gig economy. Others see it as a way to reduce income inequality or to create a more efficient, less stigmatizing safety net than our current mishmash of welfare benefits. “I think ultimately we will have to have some kind of universal basic income, I don’t think we are going to have a choice,” Tesla CEO Elon Musk said at the World Government Summit in Dubai in February. In a commencement speech at Harvard University in May, Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg said, “We should explore ideas like universal basic income to give everyone a cushion to try new things.” And in a July 4 blog post, Zuckerberg praised Alaska’s Permanent Fund Dividend, the nearest thing to universal income in this or any country. Since 1982, Alaska has been distributing some of its oil revenue as an annual payment, ranging from about $1,000 to $3,000, to every resident including children.;

The only way to fund this would be to elminate all - other safety nets. Someoone proposed

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they have to spend at least $6,000 of this on healthcare.



The problem with this is why should one person - work any harder than another

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if they both get the same benefit?

If I am going to receive the same amount of pay, the same rights, the same medical, the same type of house, the same everything to do nothing that the hard worker gets that supplies these things to me, why would I work? If I am a worker that supplies these things, and I am promised to receive them whether I work or not, why would I work? If I am a politician that makes these promises, that won’t work, and create their own demise, did I work? And when their only excuse for that question is I got paid to do it, did they get just as much as the people they are affecting?

Course not, they got millions to do this “thinking.” And since it doesn’t make sense to do any work, who’s going to decide how much and how to get the worth to anybody.

Seems the system just shot itself in the foot before it even got off the chalk board, didn’t it?

They'll have to raise the retirement age to 80.

And there you have it. - anon

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That's why I agree that universal won't work.

Wrong thinking. Most people would want more than subsistence - and will work for it

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The reality is there will not be enough good paying jobs available because of the artificial intelligence. Having this basic wage will enable people to further their education, pursue entrepreneurship, raise healthy families, etc. Win, win.

This is not something that makes everybody - get paid a monthly salary

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This article talks about giving $1000 to $3000 a year to people. Geez, read the article before making ridiculous claims.

It's kind of goofy though... Are you going to pay the rich too? - sm

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Why give that money to everyone though? The rich don't need it.

If you're basing it on income, then it should be implemented through the IRS.

Poor people could get it through an increase in the Earned Income Credit or an increased welfare benefit. Families could get it through an increased Dependent Child Tax Credit. Single people, Married w/out children could get it through an increased standard deduction...

Which makes it all sound like tax reform.
In Finland they are first trying it out with the unemployed. sm - oldtimer
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in a few cities. They each get about €500-600 per month and continue to get it even when they do go back to work. This is on top of universal healthcare, free education and childcare, paid maternity leave of up to a year, liberal paid vacations, etc. We will see what the trial shows.
Do they have 300+ million people in their country? - Truthhurts
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This is what people seem to forget. Most countries have less population, sky high taxes, don't pay their U.N. dues or help other countries with yearly aid. They don't have a lot of industry or export a lot of what they do make.

Would you like to pay 50% of your income in taxes? how about around 45% like Finland? In fact, their minimum is around 7% and maximum 61%, then add in the 24% VAT tax. Yeah, I would love to pay those taxes. Wikipedia breaks each country down by all taxes...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates

People are having a fit here now that they pay too much in taxes. i hate to say it but I would venture to guess that the VAT tax will be coming soon since it's the only way they can raise taxes on people anymore without them realizing they're paying another tax.

Tax policy center breaks the taxes down in a graph but doesn't include everything:

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes-compare-internationally
What about those people who are on SS and don't have - Truthhurts
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income now so don't pay income taxes and don't have to file?

Why should they be left out?

No, it's not. That's the Alaska oil revenues. Read the article again - Truthhurts

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“Since 1982, Alaska has been distributing some of its oil revenue as an annual payment, ranging from about $1,000 to $3,000, to every resident including children.”


Some of the ideas get rid of ALL benefits like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, etc. Some keep the benefits but the taxes on those who still work would be tremendously high.

Here’s the part you missed:

Libertarian backers would replace all or most welfare programs with a monthly cash payment….. replace all transfer payments including welfare, food stamps, housing subsidies, the earned income tax credit, Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. It would also eliminate farm subsidies and “corporate welfare.”


In exchange, each American older than 21 would get a monthly payment totaling $13,000 a year, of which $3,000 would go to health insurance.


By contrast, “those left of center like the idea of using (basic income) as a supplement to the existing safety net,...”

……if you made it enough to keep people above poverty — $1,000 a month is a popular number — “it starts to add up to a very significant portion of the GDP,” Foster said.


Andy Stern, a senior fellow at the Economic Security Project, has proposed a “left-of-center” plan that would give every adult 18 to 64 a monthly cash payment of $1,000. It would replace welfare programs such as food stamps, the earned income tax credit, unemployment and Supplemental Security Income. But it would keep Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security disability.

I want all these liberal billionaires to give their - money away first.

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We got into a discussion with a woman who posited that there is enough space in the U.S. for everyone to have a free house, and enough farm land for everyone to be provided free food.

My daughter said, “if I have a free place to live and free food, why would I work? Then who will work on the farms to produce the food or build the houses or drive the trucks to get the food to the people?” She didn’t get that. Her answer was “everyone will just pitch in and do their part to make it work.” Then, she got offended when we laughed at her.

I also posed such a question to a friend - anon

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I understand the sentiment behind all working together to sustain all, the problem is it isn't viable. I can't imagine those who have more are going to willingly give to those who have none (or less). It's the ideals of the communal minded who believe that everyone will give up what they have and that everyone else will band together and work equally. It's a nice dream and I understand it's appeal, I do, but it is not realistic.

That's the way communism got started in Russia - Truthhurts

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The plan was for everyone to share and work together. Look at the communist countries. Who does the work? Who benefits? The government takes all and doles out the proceeds to everyone.

In case you haven't noticed, many liberal....sm - oldtimer

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millionaires and billionaires ARE giving their money away. Would you like a list or, being a good MT, research it yourself?

It's one thing to give you money away to whom ever you - chose. It's another to give a specific

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amount to all US citizens on a continual basis. That's not charity.

Like taxes.

Give it away willingly is one thing. Being forced to is another. - That's not charity.

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That's theft.
I pay taxes - Others benefit
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I have paid taxes for about 45 years now and have always worked, raised my boy alone. When my tax money goes to benefit people who use things I cannot even afford to use and mostly to benefit companies who won't pay a living wage, my blood boils that I can't even get healthcare while I'm PAYING for insurance. Obama had nothing to do with what happened all my life while I paid taxes. I cannot even benefit from things like roads and beautiful American landmarks, etc., because I can't afford transportation or vacations. One might think that a person like me would favor republican ideals. On the contrary, their insistence that lining pockets of big companies is the single biggest problem that I have seen in all my years. I DO deserve to be treated medically when needed. Yet, I see none of that for decades now.

Recently there was leftist business owner who promised to pay - all his employees $75,000 a year.

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He did that for a while but found out some people worked for it, others didn't.

He eventually went bankrupt.

That's where many people have a problem with UBI - anon

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There will be those who work and those who don't and it's probably a pretty basic human instinct to feel resentful of those who work very little yet are paid the same rate.

Tell that to Costco. nm - VTMT

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.

I hope you are not talking about Gravity Payments in Seattle... - sm

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They are still in business.

Don't some of the OPEC nations have that? - Interesting... sm

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"Zuckerberg praised Alaska’s Permanent Fund Dividend, the nearest thing to universal income in this or any country. Since 1982, Alaska has been distributing some of its oil revenue as an annual payment, ranging from about $1,000 to $3,000, to every resident including children."

I know there are oil-rich nations like Kuwait that have free healthcare and education. Then again, there's Venezuela...

Still, not a horrible idea to increase oil, gas, and other fossil fuel exports to give US citizens a little gift every year. Need to see more details, but I'm not opposed.

Interesting points about universal income - I particularly like

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That it would free people from the economuc yoke, so that they could take " chances" and pursue what they were goid at and really contribute to society. It is a natural progression of capitalism to have enough money in society that we can transcend working for necessities, but can then invest our efforts in products of true innovation and creativity.

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