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As I sit here watching Vietnam and the other horrible wars and all

Posted: May 28, 2017

young people killed in them on this Memorial weekend I am wondering was Trump ever fighting in Vietnam or any war and Kuschner or his sons. Did any of them ever fight overseas at all. Just curious if anyone knows this. I live with a Viet vet and believe me they never come back the same and my father in law who was a marine in WW2 who saw it all was never the same.

;

You KNOW Trump or family members did not fight - Neither did Obama or Clinton- baiting much?

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My father fought in a war and he was perfectly normal. My brother and my son chose not to and they are normal.

Remember the infamous letter Bill Clinton wrote about - loathing the military?

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xx

Bill Clinton's letter -vs- Trump's bone spur - sm

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Here is the copy of Bill Clinton's letter so you can read about his military loathing yourself.

"Dear Colonel Holmes,

I am sorry to be so long in writing. I know I promised to let you hear from me at least once a month, and from now on you will, but I have had to have some time to think about this first letter. Almost daily since my return to England I have thought about writing, about what I want to and ought to say. First, I want to thank you, not just for saving me from the draft, but for being so kind and decent to me last summer, when I was as low as I have ever been. One thing which made the bond we struck in good faith somewhat palatable to me was my high regard for you personally. In retrospect, it seems that the admiration might not have been mutual had you known a little more about me, about my political beliefs and activities. At least you might have thought me more fit for the draft than for ROTC. Let me try to explain.

As you know, I worked for two years in a very minor position on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. I did it for the experience and the salary, but also for the opportunity, however small, of working every day against a war I opposed and despised with a depth of feeling I had reserved solely for racism in America before Vietnam. I did not take the matter lightly, but studied it carefully, and there was a time when not many people had more information about Vietnam at hand than I did. I have written and spoken and marched against the war. One of the national organizers of the Vietnam Moratorium is a close friend of mine. After I left Arkansas last summer, I went to Washington to work in the national headquarters of the Moratorium, then to England to organize the Americans here for demonstrations here October 15th and November 16th.

Interlocked with the war is the draft issue, which I did not begin to consider separately until early 1968. For a law seminar at Georgetown I wrote a paper on the legal arguments for and against allowing, within the Selective Service System, the classification of selective conscientious objection, for those opposed to participation in a particular war, not simply to, quote, participation in war in any form, end quote. From my work I came to believe that the draft system itself is illegitimate. No government really rooted in limited, parliamentary democracy should have the power to make its citizens fight and kill and die in a war they may oppose, a war which even possibly may be wrong, a war which, in any case, does not involve immediately the peace and freedom of the nation.

The draft was justified in World War II because the life of the people collectively was at stake. Individuals had to fight if the nation was to survive, for the lives of their countrymen and their way of life. Vietnam is no such case. Nor was Korea, an example where, in my opinion, certain military action was justified but the draft was not, for the reasons stated above.

Because of my opposition to the draft and the war, I am in great sympathy with those who are not willing to fight, kill, and maybe die for their country, that is, the particular policy of a particular government, right or wrong. Two of my friends at Oxford are conscientious objectors. I wrote a letter of recommendation for one of them to his Mississippi draft board, a letter which I am more proud of than anything else I wrote at Oxford last year. One of my roommates is a draft resister who is possibly under indictment and may never be able to go home again. He is one of the bravest, best men I know. His country needs men like him more than they know. That he is considered a criminal is an obscenity.

The decision not to be a resister and the related subsequent decisions were the most difficult of my life. I decided to accept the draft in spite of my beliefs for one reason: to maintain my political viability within the system. For years I have worked to prepare myself for a political life characterized by both practical political ability and concern for rapid social progress. It is a life I still feel compelled to try to lead. I do not think our system of government is by definition corrupt, however dangerous and inadequate it has been in recent years (the society may be corrupt, but that is not the same thing, and if that is true we are all finished anyway).

When the draft came, despite political convictions, I was having a hard time facing the prospect of fighting a war I had been fighting against, and that is why I contacted you. ROTC was the one way left in which I could possibly, but not positively, avoid both Vietnam and resistance. Going on with my education, even coming back to England, played no part in my decision to join ROTC. I am back here, and would have been at Arkansas Law School, because there is nothing else I can do. In fact, I would like to have been able to take a year out perhaps to teach in a small college or work on some community action project and in the process to decide whether to attend law school or graduate school and how to be putting what I have learned to use. But the particulars of my personal life are not nearly as important to me as the principles involved.

After I signed the ROTC letter of intent I began to wonder whether the compromise I had made with myself was not more objectionable than the draft would have been, because I had no interest in the ROTC program in itself and all I seemed to have done was to protect myself from physical harm. Also, I began to think I had deceived you, not by lies - there were none - but by failing to tell you all the things I'm writing now. I doubt that I had the mental coherence to articulate them then. At that time, after we had made our agreement and you had sent my 1 - D deferment to my draft board, the anguish and loss of self-regard and self-confidence really set in. I hardly slept for weeks and kept going by eating compulsively and reading until exhaustion brought sleep. Finally on September 12th, I stayed up all night writing a letter to the chairman of my draft board, saying basically what is in the preceding paragraph, thanking him for trying to help me in a case where he really couldn't, and stating that I couldn't do the ROTC after all and would he please draft me as soon as possible.

I never mailed the letter, but I did carry it on me every day until I got on the plane to return to England. I didn't mail the letter because I didn't see, in the end, how my going in the Army and maybe going to Vietnam would achieve anything except a feeling that I had punished myself and gotten what I deserved. So I came back to England to try to make something of this second year of my Rhodes scholarship.

And that is where I am now, writing to you because you have been good to me and have a right to know what I think and feel. I am writing too in the hope that my telling this one story will help you to understand more clearly how so many fine people have come to find themselves still loving their country but loathing the military, to which you and other good men have devoted years, lifetimes, of the best service you could give. To many of us, it is no longer clear what is service and what is disservice, or if it is clear, the conclusion is likely to be illegal. Forgive the length of this letter. There was much to say. There is still a lot to be said, but it can wait. Please say hello to Colonel Jones for me. Merry Christmas.

Sincerely,

Bill Clinton"

Thanks for that, it helps to see the actual words - rather than the right wing spin

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On reading this, it sounds like Bill Clinton's objection was mainly to the Vietnam war, which many, even those who served there, shared. Also the draft, which he points out quite rightly was really only necessary during WWII, NOT the subsequent wars of Korea and Vietnam.

I can't fault his doubts, especially considering the horrible treatment of the men who served in Vietnam. I have met a few vets in my younger days, they saw horrors and were irreparably damaged by that war.

In Trump we see the typical response of the upper classes in that day - easy way to get out of serving by whatever means. I wonder how many of them did that, and more importantly, how disgusting is it that they got away with it while those who were drafted without means to come up with a bogus excuse were killed or wounded for life both physically and mentally.

I hope they don't decide to bring the draft back ever. I wouldn't be surprised if Trumpy does that though. He loves war!

Clinton is a BS artist. From this letter to his - denial on national TV of having sex with an intern

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That is why he could get lots of women to have sex with him and how he got out of the military service.

Wonder how many people here talking about McCain's - service voted for him in 2008 and not

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Obama who never served.

Trump has undermined McCain's service - No respect - nm

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Interesting. Do you know any politicians or presidents - or family members who served in war?

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The only one I know of from history is John Kennedy and his older brother who was killed.

Not sure about other living presidents history but I am pretty sure Clinton or Obama were not in military.

Actually there were quite a few and then John McCain of course that - PAMT

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Trump made fun of being a prisoner of war.

I got the joke. A prisoner of war is not someone - I would want to be.

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And McCain is a turncoat Republican. If you are smart and clever, you try to escape being a prisoner of war.

Whether you like him or not, being a prisoner - of war is nothing to joke about

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it's actually degrading to joke about something like that.

I always wondered why McCain covered up POW and MIA - information to families.

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The time for the truth is way overdue. My brother was in Vietnam and he hates McCain.

He also hates Hanoi Jane for aiding VN and is not fond of - John Kerry for his testimony to

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Congress basically calling American vets "murderers, rapists, killed children, cut off ears and “ravaged the countryside” like the “hordes of Genghis Khan.”

He only served for 4 months.

Eisenhower...Korea - sm

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Obama was too young for Vietnam. Bill Clinton would have been eligible for Vietnam, but did not.

George H. Bush Bush enlisted in the U.S. Navy on his 18th birthday, June 12, 1942, as a Seaman 2nd Class. He was commissioned an ensign and pilot and served aboard the USS San Jacinto flying Grumman Avener bombers with the 3rd and 5th Fleets.

On September 2, 1944, Bush was assigned to take out a radio station located in the Bonin Islands. In the course of the action, Bush's plane was hit with enemy fire. Though the plane was on fire, he completed his strafing run on the targeted Japanese installation before flying towards sea to bail out offshore from Chichi Jima, a Japanese-held island near the more well-known Iwo Jima. He was rescued by a Navy submarine, the USS Finback. A genuine hero, Bush was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross and three Air Medals. He was discharged in September 1945 with the rank of lieutenant (j.g.)

George W Bush was National Guard...controversy surrounding that...don't know it.

Here is a list of presidents who served in military - not sure about their family members

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1. George Washington

This is a no-brainer. Washington commanded the Continental Army and defeated the far better equipped British military during the American Revolution. He turned the tide of the war Christmas night 1776, when he crossed the Delaware River as part of a surprise attack. He resigned his post as commander of the continental army after he defeated the British, affirming his commitment to democracy and separation of powers.

But he eventually went on to become the nation’s first commander-in-chief, anyway, and was the first (and only) president to personally lead troops into battle, when in 1794 an aging Washington boarded his horse and led 13,000 men to Pittsburg to quell the Whiskey Rebellion.

2. Andrew Jackson

Jackson perhaps is America’s most badass president, if not also one of the worst. He is the only president to serve in both the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812. Jackson rose to national prominence in the Battle of New Orleans, which would have totally won the War of 1812, had the war not already been won. But the victory earned him a promotion to the rank of major general in the U.S. Army, and command over much of the southern United States.

He went on to win the presidency, making him the first (and again, only) U.S. president to have killed a man in a duel. He later survived the first attempted assassination of an American president by beating the shit out of the would-be assassin with his cane.

Related: The long history of presidential scandal and U.S. politics.

3. Zachary Taylor

Taylor was the hero of the Mexican-American War, earning a series of tough victories where his forces were often outnumbered. He earned the nickname “Old Rough and Ready,” because he didn’t much care for pomp and circumstance, but was a brilliant and effective military tactician. In his first major battle, the Mexican city of Monterrey was so heavily fortified, it was considered “impregnable.” In the Battle of Monterrey, outnumbered by more than 1,000 men, Taylor took it in three days.

He was then ordered to send his men to Veracruz to reinforce Gen. Winfield Scott, but left a few thousand men behind in Buena Vista. Mexican leader Santa Anna found out, and attacked Buena Vista with more than 15,000 troops. When Santa Anna demanded surrender, Taylor’s aide replied, “I beg leave to say that I decline acceding to your request.”

Taylor’s forces repelled the Mexican attack, all but ensuring victory in the war. He used his national prominence to win the election of 1848, running on a platform of preserving the Union over deep divides over slavery, but unexpectedly died of natural causes after just 16 months in office.

4. Ulysses S. Grant

Undoubtedly one of the most legendary generals in American history, Grant cut his teeth in the Mexican-American War, when during the Battle of Chapultepec, the young West Point graduate reportedly dragged a howitzer into a church steeple to bombard Mexican forces. He left the Army in 1854, reportedly over misconduct involving alcohol, and is said to have wanted to start a career as a school teacher.

But after war between the states broke out in 1861, Grant found himself back in the Army. He commanded troops in a string of military victories down the Mississippi River, the war’s western frontier. He eventually became the commander of the Union Army, and accepted confederate leader Gen. Robert E. Lee’s surrender at Appomattox.

He won the presidency in the election of 1868 and served two terms, largely focusing on reconstructing the Union after the Civil War.

5. Theodore Roosevelt

Roosevelt resigned his post as assistant secretary of the Navy in 1898 when war broke out in Cuba. He created the first American all-volunteer cavalry regiment, popularly referred to as the Rough Riders, and set off for Cuba. He led impressive victories at Kettle Hill and San Juan Hill.

For his actions at San Juan Hill, Roosevelt received the Medal of Honor, albeit posthumously, from President Bill Clinton in 2001.

After the war, he became governor of New York, and later, vice president of the United States under President William McKinley. After McKinley was assassinated by an anarchist, Roosevelt was sworn in as president in 1901. He won re-election in a landslide in 1904, but declared he wouldn’t seek another term before his inauguration.

Roosevelt grew disheartened with the advancement of the Republican Party and sought the presidency in the election of 1912 under a new progressive party called the Bull Moose Party. Campaigning in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, in October 1912, he was shot in the chest shortly before a speech. The bullet was slowed by his steel eyeglass case and a thick copy of the speech he kept in his jacket pocket. He decided to deliver the speech, anyway, and spoke for 90 minutes before seeking medical attention.

“Ladies and gentlemen,” he said as he took the stage, “I don’t know whether you fully understand that I have just been shot; but it takes more than that to kill a Bull Moose.”

6. Dwight D. Eisenhower

Eisenhower attended West Point and served as a young lieutenant in the U.S. Army in World War I, but completely missed battle, leaving him disheartened for years.

In World War II, he would have his chance. After a brief stint as Commanding General, European Theater of Operations, he was named Supreme Commander Allied Expeditionary Force of the North African Theater of Operations in November 1942. He repelled the Axis forces’ presence in North Africa and invaded Sicily in his one year in North Africa.

In December 1943, Eisenhower received his fourth star and was named by President Franklin D. Roosevelt to be the Supreme Allied Commander Europe. He went on to plan and lead the 1944 assault on Normandy, which was instrumental to Allied victory.

He eventually became general of the Army; Army chief of staff; and in retirement, president of Columbia University.

He ran for president as a Republican in 1952 and won in a landslide, serving two terms.

7. John F. Kennedy

After a chronic lower-back injury made him ineligible for service in the U.S. Army, a young Kennedy was commissioned as an ensign in the U.S. Navy in 1941.

In 1943, he commanded PT-109, a patrol torpedo boat with a crew of less than 20. On Aug. 2, 1943, PT-109 was rammed by a Japanese destroyer while on a routine patrol in the Solomon Islands. He gathered his crew in the water around the wreckage and asked a simple question: “There’s nothing in the book about a situation like this. A lot of you men have families and some of you have children. What do you want to do? I have nothing to lose.”

His men chose not to surrender, and Kennedy led his men to a nearby island, including towing a badly wounded man to shore with the strap to his life jacket clenched in his teeth.

According to his Navy and Marine Corps Medal citation, Kennedy “unhesitatingly braved the difficulties and hazards of darkness to direct rescue operations, swimming many hours to secure aid and food after he had succeeded in getting his crew ashore.”

He was medically discharged due to his back injury in 1944 and successfully ran for Congress in 1946, Senate in 1952, and president of the United States in 1960.

His heroism helped boost his visibility for his political career. Kennedy was once reportedly asked how he became a war hero.

“It was easy,” he replied. “They cut my PT boat in half.”

8. George H.W. Bush

The last president to have a badass military record was George H.W. Bush, who upon his graduation from Phillips Academy in Andover, Massachusetts, deferred his admission to Yale University and accepted a commission as an ensign in the U.S. Navy.

He became a naval aviator at just 19 years old — the youngest ever at the time. On Sept. 2, 1944, Bush piloted a Grumman TBM Avenger on a mission to bomb a communications station on a small Japanese island called Chichijima. With him on the mission were two men — Radioman 2nd Class John Delaney and Lt. Junior Grade William White. Their aircraft was struck by intense anti-aircraft fire on the mission. With the cockpit filling with smoke and with Bush expecting the plane to explode at any minute, he completed his bombing run, flew as far as he could over the water, instructed the two men to bail out, and then parachuted out of the aircraft.

Bush was eventually rescued by the USS Finback, a submarine. The other two men were never found. The 20-year-old lieutenant junior grade was the only American service member recovered alive after being shot down over Chichijima.

He went on to serve in the U.S. Congress, as a special envoy to China, as director of the Central Intelligence Agency, vice president of the United States, and the 41st president of the United States.

“I wonder why the [parachute] didn’t open for other guys,” Bush said in 2003. “Why me? Why am I blessed?”

Ronald Reagan serve in both the Army and the Air force - between 1937 and 1945.

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xx

GHW Bush, John Kerry, JFK, Tulsi Gabbard, Tammy Duckworth......nm - VTMT

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Just curious - but why did you not google - sounds like a back-handed slam to Trump

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Do you know how to google?

I looked it up -- Wonder why Republicans don't want to talk about it. - sm

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5 deferments. But in a 1990's interview with Howard Stern, Trump said “It’s amazing, I can’t even believe it. I’ve been so lucky in terms of that whole world, it is a dangerous world out there. It’s like Vietnam, sort of. It is my personal Vietnam. I feel like a great and very brave solider,” Trump said in the interview when Howard Stern asked how he handled making sure he wasn’t contracting STDs from the women he was sleeping with.

Trump was a draft dodger - he said his own personal Vietnam

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was trying to avoid getting STDs. How shameful is that?

So was Bill Clinton, going so far as to writing a letter - stating he loathed the military.

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xx

Did you read the actual letter or are you just repeating right-wing - talking points? nm

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Did you read the actual letter or are you just repeating alt left extremist - talking points?

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Pretty clear which it was.

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