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Separation of church and state....

Posted: Apr 27, 2015

I agree that the government should stay away from religion - therefore, it follows that the government should not be able to tell me how to practice my religion - if my faith follows the teachings of the Bible, then I should not have to pay for abortions since I believe that to be murder. It should allow me to refuse to photograph a gay couple - since that goes against my beliefs. The government has no problem with me giving money to the poor, helping out with relief in Haiti, sewing quilts for battered women's shelters, supporting a seminary in Russia, sponsoring poor children to go to Bible camps in the summer, supporting Ronald McDonald House - the government stays out of those ways that we practice our religion - but when our moral compass/faith differs from that of what mainstream and Hollywood believe, then suddenly our "religion" becomes a problem.

Churches do good work - if you don't know that, you might want to think about what you are missing......

;

I read this blog and found it interesting. It's the - same topic...

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http://loveledushere.blogspot.fi/2015/04/a-marxist-coup-in-land-of-free-craftily.html

Ridiculous analogy. Russia and China were never democracies. nm - VTMT

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.

Whenever the topic of religion gets anywhere - near politics, all sanity disappears.

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nm

It's called being part of a society - Societal good not individual

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This is the society that the majority in the U.S. have decided to create. We have laws that reflect these decisions. As times change in a society the laws can change.

There have been changes going on forever in the U.S. Perhaps the changes have not affected you as personally as some of these current issues, but believe me there have been plenty of objections to changes before. And, as in the past, they will be bucked, accepted, argued, changed and settled one way or another.

It really concerns me that religion is being made such a political point, and it is being extremely emphasized by the far right conservatives to rally a base. It is causing much more divisiveness to this than there need be.

I tend to be pretty far left and have absolutely no problem with companies voicing their thoughts and policies. For instance, I no longer do business with Hobby Lobby or Chick Fil-A. My choice. They put it out there, I made a choice. If they just wanted to do business and not make a social stand, they would be doing business with more people (at least 1).

I also think it concerning, what if it were taken to extreme (which some would say it is now, depending on your circumstance). What if they only serve Caucasians of European descent because all others are mongrels. (sound familiar?) The problem is all theories of this nature can be contorted by religion and based in the Bible.

Religion is being used to divide the people. Frankly, it always has been, usually religions fighting each other. Maybe someone has gotten wise, and is trying to make alliance with all Christian religions and win some elections.

if you believe you have the right to discriminate - nana7

[ In Reply To ..]
as a business owner do you then believe a doctor as the right to not treat someone whose lifestyle is different then theirs?

Religion has no place in business. Gay people, or someone who had an abortion would be welcome in a church so why not in a business.

I don't believe in abortion but I do believe in the freedom of choice. And I don't judge someone who has had an abortion. That is God's place not ours.

Businesses are in the business to provide a service not to judge.

This is a very slippery slope and I can see business owners refusing service to people because THEY don't fit THEIR profile of what a person should be.

You now have hospitals that refuse to hire smokers. It does not matter what you think of smokers but now they have the right to intrude into people's personal lives. Everyone knows the health risks of smoking, but to be refused a job is discrimination plain and simple. So where does it stop?

I think my OB/GYN would have refused to - perform an abortion

[ In Reply To ..]
under any circumstances. I don't know if I had chosen to have an abortion, obtained it elsewhere, if he would have continued as my doctor, if he knew.

Fine line. Should he be required to see me if he knows my choices conflict with is religious beliefs? Or should he just not be required to DO ANYTHING that conflicts with his religious beliefs?

Perhaps that could (inanely) be extended to he would not deliver my baby into my family because we did not share his religious beliefs?

The question remains... - what happens to individual freedom?

[ In Reply To ..]
Freedom to chose our lifestyle based on our faith and belief in the Bible is no different than believing something is right or wrong based on moral values - when moral values evolve - as in the case of gay marriage - who decides that the Bible is now wrong because moral values have changed - the Bible does not get rewritten every decade or so to keep up with what society now deems moral and right.

answer to your question - nana7

[ In Reply To ..]
You have every right to your beliefs and to believe in your faith. But you will also have other faiths that will disagree with your faith, so who is right and who is wrong?

What I am saying is this is a slippery slope and if a business owner has the right to refuse a service because their lifestyle goes directly against their religious belief, then it can get dangerous.

For instance, lets say you went to a doctor who was gay and because you were not gay he would not see you. Is that okay? Is he within his rights? Gays who I know believe they were born gay and as such are one of God's children. So does that then give that doctor the right to refuse to treat you because your beliefs are different than his or hers? Can he let you die because of his/her beiefs?

I am not saying the Bible needs to be rewritten. I am saying we, as children of God, need to learn tolerance. You can believe whatever you want, that is your right, but you do not have the right to discriminate against someone elses rights because they live differently from you.

Those that think it is right to do this needs to read their Bible a little more closely because that is not God's word or will.

We all should live by Jesus example. He went into the lepar village and treated them, saving Mary Magdalene from persecution because of her lifestyle, even forgiving those that crucified him. And so much more. What about when he fed the people off of fish and bread. He didn't ask what their beliefs were. He fed them because they were hungry.

Where is forgiveness that we have learned in church all my life. If that gay person or woman who had an abortion is to suffer it is to be at God's hand, not ours.

Would you serve a murder? Would you serve you neighbor who is having an affair on his wife or visa versa? All against the 10 Commandments, so why gays and why people who have abortions?

Those that preach to practice religion, yet post outright discrimination are hypocrits and I pitty them when they meet the Lord. We are to treat everyone the way we would want to be treated and in this world now we have lost that value.

I guess what I am saying is you need to choose what is more important to you owning a business or practing your religion, because if you can't do both without discrimating then you have no business owning a business.

I would just like to add that throughout the bible... - sm

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we are instructed NOT TO JUDGE OTHERS. That is God's domain.

THANK YOU - nana7

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Exactly.

^ I agree with you. Religion + business is - a dangerous mix! (nm)

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But see, that's the thing: "Individual". A person - can believe what they like, and -sm

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and practice that belief as long as it doesn't infringe on others' rights. If someone doesn't believe in abortion, then don't have one yourself. But if someone does believe in it, then no one has the right to stand in their way.

If you don't believe in gay marriage, then don't be gay, and don't get married. But it's cruel and unfair to force one's personal beliefs on another couple and their desire to be married.

The bible is merely a guideline. (For those who believe in it.) It's not written in stone, its "laws" are not enforceable in all societies under all conditions. What's written in it can be interpreted as many different ways as there are individuals to interpret it. One person's interpretation does NOT trump another's interpretation.

Abortion is not federally funded and only 17 states offer assistance - ?

[ In Reply To ..]
Not sure if this commenter is the OP or not, but on the OP's original point and FYI, there is no federally-funded abortion and only 17 states offer assistance with them. So unless you live in 1 of the 17 states, you're safe and not paying for them anyway so no need to worry. The media often counts on the public not having the actual facts on this issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyde_Amendment

As for religious freedom laws, I am pro-life by my personal religious beliefs and morals, but pro-choice with law and business because I do not believe I have the right to impose my religious beliefs and morals onto others using either the law or private business to do so. This country was founded on the right to disagree religiously, sorry to burst that bubble.

However, if one wants to worry about immoral use of our tax dollars, there are many other immoral ways our tax dollars are already being spent we could worry about, so long as we don't confine our definition of immorality to just abortion and homosexuality.

Since neither abortion nor homosexuality are federally-funded or recognized, and they are in no immediate danger of becoming federally funded or recognized (one exception below), I believe that unfortunately, both abortion and homosexuality are misused as PR strategy and political manipulation; distraction technique off of larger, more pressing money issues or to gain votes for an otherwise unpopular candidate or campaign by pricking voter conscience or pulling at voter heartstrings. Part of having religious beliefs carries responsibility, meaning having enough spiritual discernment to recognize when our personal, sacred religious/moral beliefs are being misused for someone else's political or financial gain, as well as when "rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's" is appropriate, as the bible/Christ said.

The only exception to any immediate "danger" to our federal government stepping in with either abortion or homosexuality is religious freedom law seems to be having the opposite effect, actually pushing the federal government to provide legislation to protect homosexuals trying to obtain goods and services rather than protecting people trying to deny them. Something religious freedom law supporters need to think about.

Goes both ways? It sure does. - sm

[ In Reply To ..]
Google "Dominionism" and "Christian Reconstructionism."

If churches want to be involved in government, why are they allowed tax-free status? Why does our government use taxpayers' money to fund faith-based ministries? Why do religious groups get exemption from taxation and receive taxpayers' funds in order to legislate morality and discriminate against American citizens?

The Religious Right wants government to stay out of religion, but they think they should be free to fully engage in the political process and control government. Some churches in the Christian religion are attempting to seize control of government. They don't really want separation of church and state; they want a full takeover.

Pay attention, America.

Prime example: Ted Cruz. What a fool! nm - Alice

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Goes both ways - Indeed

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In the same way you feel you should not have to pay for abortions because you believe them to be murder, I consider much WAR to be murder, but as a member of the greater society, democracy, I don't get to decide what I will pay for here. You say photographing a gay couple goes against your beliefs. I'm not aware of any Biblical injunction against photography; yet that would be all that is required of you. No one is requiring you to "be gay," which presumably is what goes against your beliefs.

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