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Where does faith come from?

Posted: Oct 1, 2014

I am a 60-some-year-old woman who has no faith and no belief in God. I want to, I really do, but it's just not there. I went regularly to a Methodist church as a child, but not a particularly religious upbringing. I don't really remember what if any religious thoughts I had as a child. When I married, I converted to Catholicism simply because my husband was Catholic, though really in name only. We raised our two daughters as Catholic and they went to Catholic school and we attended church every Sunday, because it was "the right thing to do." Back then and even to this day, any time I have been in a church, any church, I feel like a total fake because I just don't "believe." I want to, but I just don't have any religious feelings at all. I've tried going to different churches with friends, but..... nothing. The whole religious thing just all seems so silly to me. I even tried reading a "teen Bible" thinking if I got the basics, the faith would come. Nothing. I've tried praying, but again it just seems silly, no "revelations" whatsoever. I now live in the Bible Belt and I'm surrounded by it, so you would think some would rub off on me, but it hasn't. I have never seen this addressed before. What if someone really wants to have faith and belief, but it just doesn't happen? Does anyone else feel this way?

;

See message - sm

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Romans 10:17 - Faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

So maybe you should pray for understanding when reading your Bible. Pray and ask God for a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the accurate knowledge of him and pray that you will KNOW the love of Christ, which surpasses all understanding and that you will be filled with all the fullness God gives - See Ephesians 1:17-20

from OP - SM

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I thank you kindly for your response. I went and got my Bible and I read all of Romans 10 and all of Ephesians 1, but it was just gibberish to me, just a bunch of meaningless words strung together. What am I doing wrong? I'm an intelligent, well-educated, well-read individual, and I still just don't get it! Someone once told me that I have developed a mental block from trying too hard and it would just come to me when the time is right, but that was years and years ago and it still hasn't happened. Am I hopeless? Where did your faith come from and why do you have it and I don't? Maybe I'm searching for an answer that no one can give me?

My faith came from believing God. You - also believe, if you didn't..SM

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You wouldn't be pursuing him. The prayer in the book of Ephesians is actually 1:17-20 and picks up at Ephesians 3:14-20. If you pray that prayer regularly you will eventually begin to feel God's presence in your life. You already have faith otherwise you wouldn't be seeking God.

My husband wants me off my phone, but I will be happy to talk more later with you tomorrow and I can even post the Ephesians prayer for you to print and pray regulary.

From OP - sm

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I would appreciate that very much. You have given me hope that maybe I'm not hopeless after all. Does anyone else have any suggestions for me, or care to share with me where their faith comes from?

P.S. That prayer is a prayer Paul prayed for the church of Ephesus - for their spiritual growth and

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I prayed it for myself years ago after reading about it in a Christian book I bought on the power of prayer. I was already a Christian, but wanted to grow spiritually and I also prayed it for my husband some years later, he has grown by leaps and bounds.

Right now he wants me to watch TV with him, but I'll check back here tomorrow. Have a good night.

I don't know what I would do without God in my life - I am praying for you

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It really is simple. Everyone is in a different place with their faith and knowledge of God and the Bible. God knows your struggle. The Bible is not easy to understand at first. The first thing a person needs to do is to come to Jesus with child-like faith and ask him to forgive your sins. Next is to ask him to help you understand the Bible as you are reading it. Take baby steps. Don't expect to understand everything right away. It really begins with knowing how much Jesus loved us that he died for our sins that we can have eternity with him in Heaven. Read the story of Jesus' life and ministry. My mom has read the Bible many times and gets something different every time. I hope this helps. I struggle myself. I sometimes cannot absorb all that I read at once. You are not alone. God loves you so much! Please don't give up!

Where does faith come from? - Gail

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I'm 60 years old as well. I was brought up in a Methodist church and left at about age 13. Around 20 years old, I started seeking for answers and I read the Bible on my work breaks. First, I read John 3 where it talks about being born again, which I'm pretty sure you're familiar with. I also read Revelation, which got me kinda scared. This was back in the mid-70s and my boyfriend at the time suggested we go to the local Jesus Freaks house in our area. So, I went, and they explained to me the way of salvation, asking Jesus to forgive my sins, fill me with his Spirit, to lead me and guide me in the truth. It seemed after that a light was turned on and I started understanding the Bible a lot better. I think it helps also to find a Bible-believing, Spirit-filled church, and maybe even ask to speak to a pastor there who can answer any questions you have. God says anyone who seeks him with their whole heart will find him, and I'm sure you're no exception. I'll be praying for you too.

Amen Gail. OP are you saved? Have you dedicated your life - to God. What that means is to

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Accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Do you believe he died on the cross for your sins?

I don't understand. - sm

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You make it sound so simple. I just say the words "I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior" and I will be magically filled with faith and belief? I don't think you really understand what I'm saying and what I am struggling with, but I thank you for your reply.

That's the beauty of it! - It IS really simple

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First you have to admit that you are a sinner (we all are :) ), and that you need a savior. A good place to start would be to read the book of John in the New Testament. After you do accept the Lord, then you will start growing in faith as you read and study His word and sit under good preaching. Hope this helps :)

Oh, That is Uplifting - Not

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To the OP: My opinion is that you shouldn't just decide you're a sinner. I think that's setting yourself up for disaster. I know you now live in the Bible belt, and I don't even think that's a good place for you. It's too much, all about preaching, and that sin thing. So you must keep your own mind and not get swept up or made to feel guilty.

Just relax. I had a hunch there would be a lot of people coming on here preaching their own belief, because that's what people from certain churches do. It's a big hoopla with them, and you shouldn't rush into that.

I do not believe that someone who doesn't feel the faith should go to a loud preacher sermon and get swept up in it.

I don't think you came to the wrong place to find how to find faith, but I think since you don't really just "have it," that it's not a good idea to just "get it."

There are some very calm, rational notes here that could help you. Follow your heart when reading. Anyone who says "BELIEVE!" is not looking out for your best interest.

ANSWER - Laurie

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I read your post and am moved by your desire to learn. Reading the Apostle Paul is the place to start. You're on the right path. When I first started reading, I used the King James Version (KJV) not the new or revised or any other version. I know KJV has words like goeth, knoweth, etc., but these words are easily understandable. The King James Version is the most accurate interpretation of the original Greek that the Apostle Paul wrote for his letters. If you want to understand what you are about to read in Romans and all throughout his epistles, please make it more easier on yourself by getting a GOOD dictionary, one that is comprehensive and includes several definitions for the words you need to look up. It is worth it to invest in a good dictionary, you won't regret it ever! I am not, as I said in another post regarding FAITH, ashamed to look up words we take for granted. Once a word is understood you can move forward slowly and begin to put the Apostle Paul's letters into focus. The mind tells you "I can't understand this - I can read this until I'm blue in the face and cannot make any headway." Good - - that's an indication that your heart needs to take over - pray first - ask the Lord to open your heart - keep this going - it's you that needs to know this - you are His. If it's in the scripture it's for you. Pay special attention to the verbs, I know this sounds silly, but it is important to know the verbs in the scriptures. For example, when the Apostle Paul says, in II Cor 10:5, Casting down imaginations and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." Why didn't he say, casted? Because it is a continuous exercise of casting out thoughts. Look up casting in the good dictionary - throwing out - not bringing back in. Would you really want those thoughts back in your head over and over again? There are many things to understand and they will come. You will be surprised. Give it a chance. Be patient with yourself. You've already decided to know this - and He knows you know. Enjoy what you are about to learn :))

I was an atheist for many years. I don't know if this - would work for you,

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but I started going to unprogrammed Quaker (aka Religious Society of Friends) meetings. Quakers wait silently to hear God speak to them. Sometimes messages are shared with the whole group. I liked the idea of just experimenting to see if God would speak to me. After a while of attending these meetings, I had seen and heard and felt enough to believe.

It has to come from God - mtd

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I almost died a few years ago. I'm a little younger than you. When I knew I was dying and even told my doctor that I would die if he didn't put me in the hospital and figure out what's wrong, he didn't believe me. He offered me a tranquilizer and suggested I go to an ER I guess just in case he was missing something. They just said the same thing. My point is, nobody believed me but I really was going to die.

Two weeks later, I would undergo emergency open heart surgery. After my cardiac cath, the doctor said to me, "I don't usually see people like you. They usually just drop dead." How frustrating to be telling people something I knew and not being believed.

The big deal to God is being believed or trusted. But I stress, trusting God and not what some religion might say. They could be 2 different things.

Hope this helps. It is very late.

Alternate question - TomQ

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Maybe the question you should be asking is why you think you need to believe in a god? Why do you think you need religion?

A great many people (myself included) get along just fine without any religious beliefs whatsoever. We live happy, fulfilling, and /rational/ lives.

In another post you stated that you're intelligent, educated and well-read. At risk of offending some readers, perhaps this is why you can't seem to drum up a sense of faith. You've developed a sense of reason, instead.

to TomQ - from OP

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Your reply resonated to me more than any other. Why do I think I need religion? I think mostly to please my elderly parents, to whom it is important. That plus the fact that I am (soon) nearing the end of my life, so of course I am full of questions. The only answer I keep coming back to is when I'm dead, I'm dead, that's it, the end, nothing more.

it's okay - MTJan

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I agree with Tom, and I am a nonbeliever who tried to believe. It's okay that "God" is not a being personified as a human man. It's okay that there's no afterlife in heaven. If you live your life as Jesus would have, then your parents should be proud, just as I'm sure they're proud that you are a thinking person.

Another thought - TomQ

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Maybe what you're really after isn't religion at all, but spirituality.

You might want to look at completely different faiths. Ignore the Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Islam and Judaism), and look to the Eastern and 'earth' religions. Perhaps start with Hinduism and Wicca, both of which seem to have a reputation for a high degree of spirituality.

I believe you are correct. - OP

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My nephew (age 40), who was brought up Catholic, switched to "Fundamental/Born-Again" when relocated to TN, is the most grounded and peaceful person I know. He became disillusioned with organized religion about 5 years ago and now practices Unitarian Universalism. I guess even this could be considered "organized religion" in a way since there is a church and a congregation. The biggest problem I have with the "born-again" teaching is (and I may be wrong here or misunderstand) that anyone who does not accept Jesus as the Savior will go to Hell!!!! If they believe that Jesus was truly the son of God, then they must believe in God. Supposedly God loves everyone. That would include Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and all other religions that worship God but in a different way and without Jesus. It just doesn't make sense to me that God (if there is one) would ignore all those other people and only accept the "born-agains." Who says they are right and everyone else is wrong? In any case, I think I will accept my nephew's invitation to attend his church and see if that gives me any answers. I've been leaning towards this but have just been too tired to actually go. And like you, I hope I haven't offended anyone. It seems when people have a certain faith, they feel very strongly about it and are easily offended. I thank everyone from the bottom of my heart for their responses.

sm - follower of Christ

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"The biggest problem I have with the "born-again" teaching is (and I may be wrong here or misunderstand) that anyone who does not accept Jesus as the Savior will go to Hell!!!! If they believe that Jesus was truly the son of God, then they must believe in God. Supposedly God loves everyone. That would include Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and all other religions that worship God but in a different way and without Jesus. It just doesn't make sense to me that God (if there is one) would ignore all those other people and only accept the "born-agains."

Yes, God does love all. "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." He also said, "I tell you the truth, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." It is up to each individual to believe and receive that gift or to reject it, in which case they are choosing to not partake of the gift of eternal life.

I believe God is calling you to Him. I pray that you continue to search for truth and that you find it, which is Jesus Christ.

So very well stated! - nilekete

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Couldn't have said it better! The gift is there for the taking, but He always gives us the choice. ;)

Problem with that - TomQ

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'He also said, "I tell you the truth, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."'

There is a problem that comes up from this, however. At the time Jesus is alleged to have said that, it is estimated there were perhaps 200 million people in the world. The vast, vast majority of them would have never heard those words. Indeed, I daresay today there are a great many people who are completely unfamiliar with the teachings of Christianity.

What of them? If "God does love all" as you say, what becomes of the people (probably billions throughout history) who never even heard of Jesus, and thus could not come to the Father?

This is a good example of the kind of flaws that appear not just in Christian dogma, but all religions. I mean, on top of the "zero supporting evidence" issue they all share in common.

It is no wonder that many of us view religious claims with considerable skepticism.

oops - OP

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That's another question I have struggled with but forgot to mention. Any answers?

To TomQ - sm

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According to the Bible, humans are born with an innate morality and knowledge that God “is.”

“For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.” Romans 1:20. “They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.” Romans 2:15.

I will do some further study of the Bible about this particular issue. However, I don’t consider it a problem if the Bible does not specifically speak to the issue of those who have not heard (in the physical sense) of Jesus, because that does not negate the truth of Jesus. In His perfect love, omniscience, and righteousness, God always does what is right. It may interest you to know that there have been many instances of revelation of Christ to people in dreams and visions, particularly among Muslims. This is a link for a story by CBN, but you can google this phenomenon for yourself and read about countless other similar experiences.

http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/onlinediscipleship/understandingislam/visions.aspx

CNN or CBN? - big difference

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x

My mistake - sm

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Sorry about that--will edit my previous post. I sense that your skepticism would preclude you from accepting at face value anything from CBN. If that's the case, I would reiterate my suggestion to google the subject for yourself and see what you might find.

See reply - R

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On the day of Jesus' coming, He will judge both the living and the dead. The Jesus that I have followed all my life, is a loving, kind, thoughtful man. When those who have not been taught about Him come before Him, they will get an opportunity to "know/see" what kind of person he is, and in turn Jesus can see in their hearts and see if they should have eternal life.

Evidence - sm

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"This is a good example of the kind of flaws that appear not just in Christian dogma, but all religions. I mean, on top of the 'zero supporting evidence' issue they all share in common."

If you had read the Bible, you would know that your claim of "zero supporting evidence" is not true. The Bible contains a lot prophecy, much of which has already been fulfilled. I shared in another post that there was a man who also was an atheist who set out for himself to see if there was evidence of Christ's claims. After his investigation, he concluded that he would actually need more faith to remain an atheist. His name is Lee Strobel, former legal editor of the Chicago Tribune. He was once an atheist, but he is a Christian pastor now. If you view Christianity with skepticism, you may be interested to read one of Strobel's many books on the subject, the initial impetus for which was his own atheism and skepticism. The Case for Christ is a great place to start.

Not Tom, but - Evidence

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Yes, the Bible contains a lot of prophecy and historical accuracy. The problem with that is, so does the Koran as well as every other religions' "Bible", whatever that may be. They each have their own truths. One truth (such as your Bible) does not trump another and it is arrogant to think it does.

Disagree - sm

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There cannot be conflicting truth, so there is only one truth. I believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God and, therefore, true. Since this Word does not originate with me, that is not arrogance.

If you ask 43 people who the first President of the United States was and you get 43 different answers, all of which are names of actual Presidents of the United States, would you be arrogant to decide that one was correct? There is one true answer to that question. Because 42 people don't believe that "George Washington" is correct does not mean that the person who did answer "George Washington" is arrogant.

If you ask 100 people - about the truth

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and 31 people say it's "The Bible" and 69 people say it is not, isn't that conflicting truth? Why does the "truth" of 31 people trump the truth of 69 people? Read your second sentence: "I believe" and "therefore true." You honestly don't believe that is arrogance? As I stated before, Statistically, 31% of the world is Christian and 69% are not.

No - sm

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To answer your first question, no that is not conflicting truth. There is one truth. Some believe it. Some do not. My entire second sentence is "I believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God and, therefore, true." The Bible is the inerrant Word of God. That makes it the truth. It is not the truth just because I believe it; I believe it because it is the truth. No, as I said before, to accept truth is not arrogance. It is not my truth; it is the truth.

Statistics have nothing to do with truth of what Jesus said. Most people in the world used to believe the world was flat, too. Now we know that is untrue. How many Christians there are in the world is not indicative of the veracity of the claims of Christ. In fact, "Many are called, but few are chosen." Matthew 22:14

Jesus claims to be the truth. You can accept or reject that assertion. If you reject it, it still remains the truth.

"used to believe the world was flat" - we're not talking about "used to",

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You can accept or reject statistics. If you reject them, they still remain the truth. There are racial bigots and then there are faith bigots. Your refusal to see accept the integrity of other religions makes you a faith bigot. I'm not trying to resort to name-calling by calling you a bigot, I'm suggesting that perhaps you open your mind just a bit.

The flat world example - sm

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was used to illustrate the point that just because most people believe something does not make it true, but I suspect you know that.

The statistics regarding religious groups throughout the world only reflect how many people follow any one of many different systems of belief. The "truth" of those statistics, then, pertains only to that--not to the correctness of anyone's belief. Though I have not researched those numbers myself, I have no argument with the statistics to which you referred. It makes no difference in regard to the truth of Jesus Christ.

"You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it." Matthew 7:13-14

Once someone has been given the truth, he knows that all other answers are false and there is no need to search further. The Gospel is, literally, the truth. This truth is for everyone who would hear it.

You have resorted to name-calling. That's sad, but not surprising. Jesus has been called worse by the world, and a servant is not greater than his master. I forgive you just as He has forgiven me.

conflicting truth vs one truth - please read

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Did you know that the Bible and the Quran share the same truth?

Quotes from Quran: Islam, a Message of Peace!

“And in their (the earlier prophets) footsteps We sent Jesus the son o Mary, confirming the law that had come before him. We sent him the Gospel, therein was guidance and light and confirmation of the law that had come before him, a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God.” Qur’an:5:46

“And walk not on the earth with conceit and arrogance.” [al-Isra' 17:37]

“God does not forbid you to be kind and equitable to those who have neither fought against your faith nor driven you out of your homes. In fact God loves the equitable.” Qur’an:60:8

“O ye who believe! Do not squander one another’s wealth in vanities, but let there be amongst you traffic and trade by mutual good will.” Qur’an:4:29

My interpretation: It is arrogance to state that your Bible is the one truth. Quran carries the same message. Share the message. Do not squander the truth by your own vanity in believing that only the Bible is the truth.

I think you are confusing faith with truth - another poster (sm)

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If faith were empirically true, it wouldn't involve faith. This is the beauty of faith. Embrace it.

I happen to believe that God works in mysterious ways and might have really neat ways of relating to lots of different people. I think metaphor is for reflection, and not meant to be parsed syllable by syllable.

In the end, I believe that people of faith tend to believe in the same things. I have never found meaningful the insistence that one religion is the only truth, and I would never presume to know what is on God's mind

comments - yet another poster

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I don't understand your first sentence, too deep for me, over my head. But I agree wholeheartedly with your last sentence.

faith vs truth - another poster

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I wasn't trying to be deep above. I just meant that there are facts and there is faith. If faith relied on facts, it wouldn't be faith.

Right - TomQ

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I'm glad I was able to offer a response that you could connect with.

You wrote: "Who says they are right and everyone else is wrong?"

That right there was the exact same thought that set me on the path to atheism! In my early teens I'd noticed that a number of religions (and even different sects within certain faiths) insisted that theirs was the One True Faith, and all others were false. It was clear they could not all be correct, which made me suspect that none of them were.

The sheer arrogance of such a claim was enough to turn me away from any religion. That people fought wars and killed one another over it was (and is) sickening.

While you're searching for answers (which I applaud, no matter where it takes you), you might also take a look at the American Humanist Association (americanhumanist.org).

Best regards

very well said Tom - MTJan

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You stated clearly my own path toward atheism. To the OP, yes, I think Unitarian Universalism might be for you. That's my affiliation, if I had to pick one. The UU church includes many who, like you, are questioning. Meanwhile, it works toward social justice around the world, which promotes peace.

I'm loving this open dialogue. - OP

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Everyone seems to be respectful of each person's right to express their own opinion, and many good points have been brought up. Lots to think about. Thank you all.

Who's right and who's wrong? - Interesting question.

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I think Christians live in their own little world and refuse to see the big picture. Only 31% of the world's population are Christians! The rest of the world is 23% Muslims, 16% no religion, 15% Hindu, 7% Buddhist, 6% folk religion (tribe associated), 1% other, and 0.2% Jews. No one can say who is right and who is wrong. And keep in mind that Christians have historically forced their beliefs on others, particularly South American Indians, through "missionaries." So what percentage of those 31% Christians are through choice, and what percentage are now Christians because of it being forced on their ancestors? Just something to think about.

Jesus - sm

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said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." He is either right or wrong. If He is wrong, He is a blasphemer. However, if you want to know if it is true, you can read the Bible for yourself.

The Bible is completely congruous. It is also an accurate historical document. Lee Strobel, former award-winning legal editor of the Chicago Tribune, while still an avowed atheist, decided to see for himself if what Christ claimed was, indeed, true. He gathered evidence as one would do when preparing for a legal trial. His conclusion surprised him. He said it would actually take more faith for him to remain an atheist. He is today a Christian pastor. He wrote many books on the subject. "The Case for Christ" is one in which he examines the evidence that Jesus is who He says He is.

If a Christian does something wrong, that does not make Christ wrong. I don't follow my fellow Christians. I follow Christ, my Lord and Savior. He is the Truth.

Faith - nilekete

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There is a book called "Jesus Calling", written by Sarah Young. It's a daily devotional that I have found to be unlike so many others I've seen. It's short but very inspiring and just puts me in a positive and open frame of mind, which I'm hopeful will help you to make the connection you need and want so much. Don't worry about rituals, etc, which are part of religious services. Just spend time with Him by yourself and invite Him into your heart and mind. He'll be there. I believe He already is here. I don't visit this site regularly, although I have visited it infrequently in the past. Today, I was just checking to reference something and your e-mail popped up. This is the first post I have ever made here. Get the book, keep giving yourself alone time with Him each day and I'll be praying for your success in the meantime!

me again... - The OP

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I have a really stupid question, or at least I'm sure it sounds stupid to all of you who have answered. So many of you have said you will pray for me. What does that mean exactly? What do you say? Do you refer to me as "that person on MT Stars" or what? Just wondering. Thank you again.

Probably "that person on MT Stars" or some variation - But some people like to pray very specifically

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One of my friends likes to know the first name of the person she is praying for. Some of them are fine with praying for someone anonymously (like you) or blanket prayers like for all those in the armed forces, shut-ins, etc.

How to refer to you in prayer... - nilekete

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In prayer, you will simply be "OP". God knows to whom I am referring, not a problem, and I will pray for the Holy Spirit to help you open your heart to Him in such a way that you can feel His presence. ;)

From a believer - see msg

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I'm impressed with your transparency and willingness to open a discussion like this.

Here's my take: Maybe you're waiting for an emotional response that just isn't happening. Faith doesn't necessarily manifest itself that way (though for some it can be very emotional). I'm very analytical, and I attend a Sunday school taught by a professor who talks very rationally about issues of faith. Frankly, I'm always a little suspicious of being swept away by a flood of emotion; I prefer the facts, ma'am.

People typically defend their faith and style of worship passionately, so I was very cautious when I started asking these kinds of questions some 15 years ago. I don't believe that God ever fails to respond to a genuine plea for understanding, and that was how I first came to faith in Christ.

I understand that there are people who don't believe, and many who think religion is superfluous, but I would say that contemplating one's eternity is not to be taken lightly. Please don't stop asking questions!

To: From a believer - From: OP

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Wow. You referred to an emotional response, and it definitely happened, though it was not a "faith" emotional response. I don't know what it was, but after reading your post, I cried for half an hour nonstop. I don't know why. I haven't cried for 20 years! What I do know is that it wasn't any kind of faith/belief-based emotional response like you were referring to. I think it was your phrase "contemplating one's eternity" that did it. That brought up even more questions in my mind.

First, I feel like it's cheating for me to go my entire life without faith and then suddenly seek/find/accept it at this point. It just doesn't seem right... again, I would feel like a fake, like I didn't deserve it, like the old fable about the squirrel who was busy gathering nuts to prepare for winter and none of his animal friends wanted to help, but they all wanted to partake of those nuts when winter came. I would feel like one of those animal friends who didn't deserve the nuts. (Maybe it was an ant, not a squirrel, I don't remember.)

Secondly, what is the purpose of faith? Is it for the present, is it to make you feel good about yourself, is it to share your beliefs with others, or is it for the future... to achieve the supposed ultimate goal of eternal life? I'm not sure I even want eternal life even if there is such a thing! I'm just too tired. I mostly feel like I've had a full and happy life, why would I want more? Just put me in the ground and be done with it.

I imagine anyone reading this must think I'm a blasphemous, pitiful excuse for a human being, but I've laid it all out here without censure.

BTW, my name is Nancy. Just so you don't think I'm Ron Howard (OP? get it? haha).

To OP from a believer! - see msg

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Hiya, Nancy.

Religious discussions often alienate people, and I don't want that to happen. I've tried to study scripture carefully and think I've had good teachers, but no doubt there are those who will find something objectionable.

"...after reading your post, I cried for half an hour nonstop. I don't know why. I think it was your phrase 'contemplating one's eternity' that did it." That's deadly serious (even terrifying) stuff, IMO.

"First, I feel like it's cheating for me to go my entire life without faith and then suddenly seek/find/accept it at this point. It just doesn't seem right... again, I would feel like a fake, like I didn't deserve it..." But that's exactly the point, Nancy. NOBODY deserves it! It doesn't matter whether you're 5, or 50, or 80...one day, something in you stirs and you have an awareness of something so much larger than yourself. Your response is hunger to know more, and your life is never the same. Maybe it happens the day before you die! Doesn't matter! This is something worth investigating because, believe me, the gospel wasn't written by man; it's absolutely mind-blowing in its conception and provision. It doesn't matter what your motivation is, either; most of us have mixed motives anyway.

Don't let it get in your way that people who say they have faith don't act like angels. Most of us (even believers) can be, and often are, just insensitive and a little narcissistic. We should all be full of joy and selfless love, but life can be hard, and I sometimes get depressed. That's okay, too.

"I would feel like one of those animal friends who didn't deserve the nuts." Again, nobody deserves the nuts. Some squirrels think they deserve the nuts because they labored all summer long to gather them. This is man's logic, not God's.

"Secondly, what is the purpose of faith? Is it for the present, is it to make you feel good about yourself...?" For me, faith doesn't enhance my self image a bit; if anything, it makes me realize my hands are dirty. What faith does is fill me with a sense of wonder, peace, and relief, knowing that I am forgiven and loved by my Savior ANYway. He planned it that way, knowing I couldn't reach perfection. I really WANT to be an example, but I mostly get in my own way.

"I'm not sure I even want eternal life even if there is such a thing! I'm just too tired." Yeah, I hear ya. I'm tired, too. But eternity won't be filled with the struggles we have today, I guarantee.

"I mostly feel like I've had a full and happy life, why would I want more?" LOL I've had a good life, too. But this isn't all there is. We are simple mortals who have an opportunity to communicate with the Divine, by His own design. Your response can have eternal consequences.

"I imagine anyone reading this must think I'm a blasphemous, pitiful excuse for a human being..." Nah, you're amazing, Nancy!

To a believer from OP - thank you

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too tired to say more, just thank you.

Hi again - see msg

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Yeah, I have that effect on most people. zzzzzz Have a great day!!

About those nuts ... - and some other stuff

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OK, that other person posted some great explanations. I am glad she did, because I am not very good at that. I can't improve on it, but I want to share some of my thinking. It will sound a little simplistic, but that is as far as my thinking goes.

You do not need to worry about your nut collection. For one, it isn't a contest, there is no admission fee, and there are no scout badges being given out. Think about it ... why would the Divine need nuts? Does he really care about that? Why?

For another, you don't have any way to tell that those nut-laden squirrels really have anything of value. You don't know what lies underneath.

Another thing is that I am not so sure that time is terribly relevant to this. The time you are talking about is linear time, the way we perceive it. I don't think the Almighty sees it the same way. I also think that people proceed on this journey at vastly different rates. What one person accomplishes in a month, or a minute, might exceed what others accomplish in 60 years.

I also think you should consider that this is not something that you alone do. It is a relationship with a very real being, not an imaginary friend. That being can and will communicate with you. It is just hard for us to hear because we are so used to using our senses.

I can't say that I have faith or that I believe, because I know. I still occasionally doubt, but the doubts are small and inconsequential compared to what I know. I know that there is a being and that the being loves you to an indescribable extent. I also know that this being is very much aware of you and what you have been up to, and that he will clear a way for to reach him when you are ready. Nancy, it might just be that you were not ready before now.

If you had a little squirrel in your yard that you were trying to coax close, wouldn't you feel thrilled when the squirrel finally approached you? Would you think any less of the squirrel because the other squirrels lost their fear days before? Of course not. You would just be happy that all the squirrels had come to you.

I think that you are hearing the invitation. Everything you write says that is what is occurring. It isn't something you thought up, but something he initiated. Really. He is, in fact, communicating with you. Take him up on it. It is totally worth it.

Don't fret about feeling pitiful. He doesn't seem to mind.

Reply to Where Does Faith Come From ? - machine trainer

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I believe that anyone who sincerely wants to have faith in God, as you do, will receive it. This is what is meant by the Bible phrase, "Knock and the door will be opened to you." Here is the truth: God exists, the Lord God Almighty, the Lord Jesus his Son who died for our sins, and the Lord the Holy Spirit. These are the Holy Trinity. The Bible is the truth and is God's word given to us. I think that the best way to start learning about God is to get the Bible and read it. I think the New International Version is very good, and Bible Gateway is a good website. I am praying for you too, along with all the others . . . you will get there !!

me yet again - OP aka Nancy

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This is just so strange, I had to share. After I logged off MT Stars, I logged onto FB and the first thing that popped up was:

"Unitarian Universalism welcomes questions; welcomes doubts; welcomes you."

Those words were within a box with a lovely sort of soft flame-like logo or background.

It was not posted by my nephew I mentioned above, he's not even on FB. It was just one of those generic things that pop up from who-knows-where.

So I had to come back here to share. Strange, huh?

I think you have the wrong idea about - what faith is.

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From your posts, it appears that you might be defining faith as a feel-good sort of "rah rah for God" kind of thing. You are waiting for faith to happen to you, like the overwhelming emotion that seems to happen in revival tents.

Not only does that not constitute faith, but it isn't necessarily a mature faith situation.

You also seem to be diminishing the spirituality of religious groups based on your minimal understanding of them. For instance, you were Catholic, but you did not seem to get very far in learning any actual theology. Yet, you feel it didn't work magic for you. You ever got beyond children's teachings, I think.

Maybe the feel-good bit isn't your style? Perhaps you might want to try a more intellectual approach?

You might be interested to know that many, many saints had the same problem. Look up the life of St Augustine. Mother Teresa apparently struggled with it. It is actually a fairly normal thing. Try looking up "dark night of the soul" or the concept of aridity (dryness) in prayer.

I also think you might be shooting yourself in the foot by limiting yourself to kiddie materials. Why not try something more intellectually appropriate than a teen Bible? You are a highly literate person, or you could not transcribe. Get a better translation that you can enjoy just for the beauty of the language, and one that is not written in archaic English, i.e., not the KJV. Try the Jerusalem Bible. Start with the Psalms, and don't expect a flood of emotion to happen. Just read it because it is the ancient, ancient response of a people to something larger than themselves.

Unitarian Universalists might well be what you feel most comfortable with. Again, do not expect a flood of emotion. No obligation, hmm?

I do not believe that it is a necessity to get saved in a revival tent. That is just one style of organized religion. There are many others. You can explore them.

wrong idea about what faith is - OP

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I am not defining faith at all. That's what my questions are about. Maybe instead of asking where does faith come from, I should ask more specifically what faith is? Actually I did ask that in my reply to From a believer. But thank you for your reply, you bring up many valid points.

Faith is - sm

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the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see. Hebrews 11:1

Just read every one of these posts. - What a great discussion! (nm)

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x

FAITH - Laurie

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Hi, I'm a 61-year-old woman:)) Nothing can be more discouraging than the heart unsatisfied or unfulfilled. Faith resides in the heart not the mind. The mind and the thoughts that lie within are powerful and counterproductive to the spirit. Whenever anyone seeks for more and searches for answers, the mind is the first thing that hinders the desire. People who accomplish in the flesh - like running a marathon or getting through college - use their mind and discipline to accomplish. However, the things of the spirit and the heart are a different matter. It requires willingness, honesty and discipline. If you look these three words up in a GOOD dictionary one that gives many definitions and a more thorough understanding - you can get a start on how to understand what is already going for you and your faith. The Apostle Paul says, So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Start with Romans - quietly - don't try to read everything - look words up - each one if necessary. I am not ashamed to look words up - how else can one understand? Go slowly, ask the Lord to have your heart opened - really....you will be surprised if this is what you desire. Remember - the mind is a hindrance because it's always getting in the way of the heart. Think of it as water and oil. If you put water in a bottle halfway - then put oil in on top - then shake it - what happens ? After a moment the oil comes to the top and the water at the bottom. The oil is the spirit and the water is the flesh (mind). Learn how to separate these - the heart should always be taken care of. That is where you spirit dwells. Hope this helps :))

Not the OP but I love this post - NM

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:)

Maybe This Helps - see msg pls

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I don't think that reading the Bible will give faith. You are correct--it's complicated and a bunch of words, and even theologians have different interpretations of what it all means.

I haven't read all the notes here, so I don't know if my suggestions were mentioned.

I think that looking for an "entity" isn't realistic for you, at least for now.

For me, I just look outdoors at a beautiful scenery and I just know that "something" had to have done this, that science and molecules can't do it alone. Or look at it this way: Okay, the scientific approach makes sense, but only to a point. Something, someone had to create that first molecule to get things rolling. I call the something God. I don't feel you even have to put a name on it, but I do.

I also think the poster who suggested more of a spirituality approach with Eastern mode of thinking is excellent. It's not where I go in my mind, but a lot of people do and are quite peaceful in their hearts.

My very best to you. Whatever you do, don't go to some guru brain-washing thing. People who are searching DO get caught up in those, and it's not healthy.

I was like you years ago and.... - Southern Belle

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I'd like to share with you how I came about to have faith. I also grew up in the United Methodist church system - had no choice because my father was the pastor. Did I have faith? No. Did I go through the motions as you have? You betcha. So what changed? Life did. There was a point in my life when I was half your age when I was being tempted to go bar hopping, sleeping around, getting drunk, whatever to "have a good time." Fortunately I didn't actually do anything real stupid, but satan was literally on 1 shoulder saying "go ahead, you'll have fun!!!" but on the other shoulder I'd feel God saying "don't, you'll make bigger mistakes than you've made in life." I was literally spiritually torn. I didn't honestly know what to believe or even if I had a belief in a God, higher power, or what. So I started soul searching. Exploring different religions and thinking "does this make sense to me?" Driving around one Sunday morning just thinking I saw a church that I suddenly felt an urge to walk into. Wasn't expecting it either. So in I walked in blue-jeans and a t-shirt about 20 minutes after the Bible study hour started. No one cared what I looked like - even though there was only 1 other person in jeans (this was 20 years ago before churches started accepting casual dressing). They welcomed me with open arms, showed me around, offered me coffee and I immediately felt not only at peace but a sense I belonged there. The pastor preached a message I needed to hear - his sermon topic that day was "where do I fit in?" At this time the town I lived in had over 100,000 residents, a lot churches and I went to "the one" that had "the message" I needed to hear. I gobbled ever word he said. Thought about it. Went back week after week and finally sat down with him and said "I have no idea why I'm here, but there's something I'm missing and I don't know what." I wanted to feel like you do - to have that "tah dah ah ha zap me with the holy spirit right now" moment. He explained it to me like this. God was working on my heart because He had a plan for me and my "happening" to feel led to there wasn't a mistake. He asked about the ups/downs of my life and pointed how in each triumph/failure God was there to protect me and help me out - even when I didn't recognize it. I then remembered my poor days after college when I'd literally have 17 cents for a whole week after a few groceries and gas were bought and would hope and pray the old car wouldn't break down or I'd get sick. I got through. Barely, but I did. He pointed out how even when at times when I felt hopeless I'd have a deep inner feeling that somehow in a strange sort of way gave me hope and I didn't know where it came from. He pointed out when I had deaths in the family or when my fiance was killed in a car accident that people surrounded me with love, even people I didn't know. He then said that God sent many, probably not all, but many of these people to me when I needed them to show me love....the same kind of love that Jesus showed those he ministered to - those that didn't believe as well as those who did believe in God. I then became very hungry for the Word of God. Began reading my Bible and attending the Bible study classes on Sunday morning. The more I read the more it slowly dawned on me that the Word of God was true. Scriptures that previously in my life meant nothing would suddenly "hit me" with the "hey I needed that!" Do I "get it" all the time now? No. Do I still struggle? You betcha at times I do. After I got married I suffered a miscarriage and that's the hardest thing I've ever had to deal with besides my prior fiance's death - losing a baby we desperately wanted in my 13th week of pregnancy. Ouch. But, through the billion tears I felt God telling me that I'd be reunited with my baby when I die and that gives me hope for the future that when I do meet my baby we'll both have perfect bodies in heaven.

What I encourage you to do is this. Pray to God for understanding and to send you people to help you develop a faith. Explore different churches in the area. You'll know when you find the right place to be - because it'll instantly feel like "home" to you and that you "belong." I'll pray for guidance for you. E-mail me if you'd like to talk further.

Thanks so much for sharing your testimony - and encouraging the OP

[ In Reply To ..]
God bless you.

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